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1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 05:50   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

List 1

HQ
190 Vulkan He’Stan

ELITES
200 Terminator Assault Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
200 Terminator Assault Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
200 Terminator Assault Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields

TROOPS
235 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta (Drop Pod w. Deathwind, Locator Beacon)
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind

FAST ATACK
60 Land Speeder (1) w. Heavy Bolter, Tornado Heavy Flamer

Total: 1850

List 2

HQ
190 Vulkan He’Stan

ELITES
200 Terminator Assault Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
200 Terminator Assault Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
150 Ironclad Dreadnaught w. Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-55 Drop Pod w. Locator Beacon, Deathwind Launcher

TROOPS
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind

Total: 1845

List 3

HQ
190 Vulkan He’Stan

ELITES
400 Terminator Assault Squad(10) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
400 Terminator Assault Squad(10) w. Thunderhammers and Stormshields
145 Ironclad Dreadnaught w. Heavy Flamer, Meltagun
-55 Drop Pod w. Locator Beacon, Deathwind Launcher

TROOPS
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
-55 Drop Pod w. Locator Beacon, Deathwind Launcher
170 Tactical Sqaud(10) w. Flamer, Multi-Melta
-55 Drop Pod w. Locator Beacon, Deathwind Launcher

HEAVY SUPPORT
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind
85 Whirlwind

Total: 1850


As you can see, three armies very closely based around the Forgefather's chapter special. I am a complete noob when it comes to playing marines, as this is my first time in all of my years playing warhammer that I've tried making a list. Unfortunately, I've never played AGAINST a good marine player either - every marine list I've played has fallen apart quickly to my orks, tyranids, or even guard (and that's saying something!). Therefore, I've never seen what a marine list is supposed to do in order to be victorious. These lists are merely what I've put together from my perspective gleaned from reading the codex, and not from experienced players helping me through the steps. I will try to explain why I took each unit, and what it does for the army as a whole, but please critique where necessary (and I expect there to be much).

Vulkan He'Stan, The Forgefather
He is the bonding force of the list. I saw his chapter special rule, and decided that there was no alternative - it was simply too powerful to pass up, even to Shrike's Fleet of Foot or Korsarro's outflank. Most of the other units in my army were chosen because of this synergy, though I fear I may have let it restrict my options as anything which synergized with this rule became a higher priority than perhaps a better option which did not. Regardless, Vulkan looks totugh as nails himself and a good addition for the melee defence of a tac squad if I see a melee dedicated unit heading towards me.

Terminator Assault Squads
With the change in stormshields to being a 3+ invulnerable save, I look at these units as the all-purpose-kill-it-dead tool. Before, Assault Termies would not be trusted to take down a carnifex, wraithlord, or other big-baddie with "ignores armor saves". Why, even a tactical squad with a hidden power fist was something to be wary of, and engagement with such a unit would likely cause more loss than gain. Now, they are the unit which I would trust to toss agaainst my opponents most difficult and deadly targets. I do not think unrealistically, as I know that for every three wounds they take one will stiill die. However, they can be trusted to take down a much bigger and more important target than themselves. The fact that the thunderhammers synergize with Vulkan is just icing on the cake, as I was planning on taking these units before the codex and Vulkan were even released. My plan would be to separate any 10 man squads into 5 using the combat squads special rule though. The only reason I made units of 10 was to save elite choice spaces.

Ironclad Dreadnaught
Drop pods are where its at. Having the ability to, on my first turn, stomp an AV12 nuicance that tosses pie-plates right in front of my opponents gunline is disruptive. Having that, plus an AV13 combat monster with two heavy flamers stomping in front of my opponents gunline is even better. This unit is just plain gross against any army, as it will mess up a gunline and force theme to ether redirect all of their fire or fall back from the static offense. Against an assault army, they must either take it out, wasting precious turns needed to close with the rest of my army, or ignore it and continue being pounded all throughout their slog up to my troops. Against a transport heavy army, it can close off a much-needed avenue or destroy a particularly important/heavy assault craft. I can't see anything that is bad about this unit.
.. And heavy flamers are fun with Vulkan. :P

Tactical Squads
These guys, I don't know so much about. I took the flamers/multi-meltas for two reasons. One, they're cheap. Two, they synergize with Vulkan.
One thing I had considered (and included in the first stages of my lists) was putting a powerfist sergeant in each squad, as doing so would ward away many heavy melee threats, such as Meganobz, Wraithlords, Dreadnaughts, Terminators, Hive Tyrants, and other big, stompy, and otherwise incredibly destructive things. However, powerfists are incredibly expensive and I was not sure that the extra cost was relative to the benefit I recieved. Given that they were a defensive upgrade, and not a part of my army's "grand scheme", I eventually abandoned them in favour of enhancing other units.
Any help with these units in particular, however, would be greatly appreciated.

Whirlwinds
Whirlwinds are GROSS. As an Ork, Tyranid, and Imperial Guard player, I find anything that "ignores cover" to be broken - but a pie plate that ignores cover? Just impossible to overcome if unprepared. What's even worse is that even with the ignores cover special rule it still has an AP of 5, denying me even THAT small measure of safety.
Against light to medium units, this thing is a terrible screeching bringer of doom, ignoring cover, denying saves, and covering entire squads, and causing pinning tests at -1ld.
Against medium squads, this thing is a rightly-feared engine that should be disabled as quickly as possible, with the power to deny saves, wound on 3+ or better, and cause pinning tests at -1Ld.
Against heavy squads, this thing is far less powerful, but that's what the copious amounts of multi-meltas and thunderhammers are for.

Overall, the whirlwinds fill in for the weakness of my army - the inability to deal with large numbers of Shtlk troops rather than the powerful elites. And it performs this function extremely well, even if it doesn't benefit from Vulkan (and is the only unit in my army that doesn't).

Land Speeder
My first lists incorporated three of these units at least, sometimes even full squads of 3 landspeeders. These are a familiar thing to me, as my orks always run with suicidal Skorcha Buggies, fast lightly armored vehicles with a powerful flamer template striking quickly, then dying in a horrible explosion. I figured that skimmers would be even more suited to the task. In practice however, the skimmers inability to benefit from terrain caused them to die with alarming speed, and the difference between 40 and 60 points for a kamikaze harassment unit is substantial enough in list-building. I still include one of these in some lists as they are useful, however I find them more being used to fill points than to hold a significant role in my army.
... But they do synergize well with Vulkan.


There's my incredibly long lists/overview. Any help is greatly appreciated, as well as new ideas or even new lists built by you. Keep in mind that all idealistic babble I posted about the units is mostly theoretical, as I've had only two test games over Vassal so far, and none with these three lists as of yet.

Thanks in advance Tauonline. I know you'll make me proud to be a member, as you often do.
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Old 12 Oct 2008, 05:59   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Mmmmm... I like the 2nd list the best. Its got a good solid core of marines, good chunk of terminators. And the whirlwind support is as you so simply put it...GROSS... I like it alot. Even though i dont play salamanders i would play with that list any day.
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Old 13 Oct 2008, 01:49   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

I like the second list best. It goes for number of bodies without any fancy gear. Normally I advocate powerfists in Tac Squads but here I don't think you need them. You've got 3 major assault threats capable of handling any enemies. Just make sure to keep them close by because the Tac Squads will fold in combat if isolated.

The one thing I worry about is your assault units deep striking down without support. The Tac Squads will have to run across the board to use their weapons effectively. If your whole army is together, then the Tactical Squads compensate for the ranged and horde weaknesses of the Dreadnought and Termies, while are protected from assault in turn. The Whirlwinds function fine on their own.

To solve the separation problem I'd suggest dropping a Tac Squad to buy Drop Pods for the other four. I suggest 2 locator beacons and one Deathwind launcher among the 5 drop pods in the army, spread out so no two upgrades are on the same Pod, making it more of a target.

It's a very fearsome list. Good luck!
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Old 13 Oct 2008, 06:20   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Silly Chinese internet being weird and making me post the same thing twice.

To make this post have some use I'll respond to GKTerminator. I think the anti-tank is adequate at the moment. Dropping assault termies from the second list is going to leave him too weak in hand to hand. If you are concerned about anti-tank, shuffle some points and make a few of the flamers meltaguns.
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Old 13 Oct 2008, 08:34   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Well tatical marines under the new codex follow have several uses and a few things that you need to keep in mind. lets take a look:

1. Bolters don't suck. Now I remember in 4th edition I (and many others) would shy away from using the bolters in the army and simply make our tac squads a heavy/special weapon toting menace used for nothing else.With the need to field a 10 man unit to get anything other than sergent upgrades you'll find yourself using a tac marine alot more for just shooting. The bolter is a great weapon for this. So be sure to keep that in mind when you light something up.

Secondly about tac squads is the new combat squad option. I've toyed around with this alot and had a few games where I got to try out my tac squads filling different roles. What I found is that using multi-meltas means 2 things, you don't move alot, and you need to stay as close to the front lines as you can. I'd almost recommend you drop two of those and have a more mobile 10 man squad. using the other two as split combat squads so that they can deploy the MM close up and the flamer can go running a the battle lines is a better option, however don't split up EVERY squad as this will make picking off several small squads or removing their special/heavy weapon threats fairly possible.

Tac squads for holding objectives however (especially the ones in your deployment zone) are harder to dislodge when there's 4 squads of 5 rather than 2 of 10 I've found.

As for the rest of your list: Whirlwinds are scary, but having three of them in the list can limit your long range tank busting ability. I am very wary when fielding marines because leaving your tank busting to Multi-Melta weapons can hinder that ability significantly. Instead look at possibly replacing one of those with a Dev squad, or a Pred. They're more expensive and you may have to shift around a Termi squad or such to make room for it but overall you'll find a couple of well aimed lascannons far better than trying to assault a tank 90% of the time.

of all your lists #2 is the best.
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Old 16 Oct 2008, 00:40   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Excellent, thanks for the help so far guys. I got to play test my 2nd list against an eldar army of my friend. He had:

-3 units of Dire Avengers, 10 men each with exarchs using defend and bladestorm, loaded in Wave Serpents with Starcannons
-Pheonix Lord Asurmen and accompanying unit of 10 DAs in waveserpent with starcannon
-8 Fire Dragons with exarch, in a Falcon with Starcannon and pulse laser
-10 man unit of harlequins

The game was effectively over by 3rd turn. His tanks shredded like paper against the TL multi-meltas, and his (then exposed) infantry was completely destroyedd by the whirlwinds, especially since they were so bunched up from immediately disembarking. All he had left was Asurmen with one wound left, one Harlequin, and the exarch from one Dire Avengers squad.

I'm quite happy with how this army performed, although I'm sure it would perform quite diferently against a list that didn't so entirely and fully meet its target-needs :P I can understand GK's desire for a bit of longer ranged AT power, but I think I"ll test a few more games out with the army as is before deciding exactly what form that AT will take. Probably a devastator squad, since I've never liked making my Anti-Tank, on a tank.
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Old 16 Oct 2008, 02:47   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

on a side note be wary of only play testing the list once, it sounds like your opponent may not have used his forces to the best of his ability since melta weapons work the worst against serpents if they are used right. Furthermore be wary of lists fielded with a mass fire approach rather than a starcannon weapons.
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“If I were a proper brother-captain, I would know the prayer we are supposed to say. But I think you all know what we have to do. We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy - the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember." - Acting Brother-Capitan Alric of the Grey Knights.
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Old 16 Oct 2008, 03:30   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

... this list is everything wrong with the new SM codex. You said it with the drop-podded Dred - He's obvious, and disgusting to enemy infantry.

Very powerful. However, consider fighting against a list without tanks and a large number of 3+ saves.

I hate saying it, but it honestly seems like the only thing that could give this list trouble is another SM army. Or Necrons. Or CSM: The Evil Twins!

Don't get me wrong; if I played SM, I'd DEFINITELY make a list based on Vulkan.

I just don't think it is fair having a cheap, damn dangerous HQ that does so much good.

Worse still, I dislike cheap (pointswise) "Special" Characters - on principle, I want their cost to make them fringe armies that inject some serious flavor into the army of anyone willing to take them.
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Old 16 Oct 2008, 10:36   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Your lists bore the hell out of me. I read them all three times and I still can't see where the originality is.

All of these forces feel like a "I'm here to win" list. There's no depth, no character and nothing particularly appealing about any of them.

First thing to do is stop cookie-cuttering everything. Having two Tac Squads kitted out the same is pretty normal for a 1,500pt list, so maybe you can get away with three in 1850, but variation is needed.

Make everything else in the list 0-1, and then you'll start seeing a list worth reading.
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Old 16 Oct 2008, 16:46   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: 1850 Salamanderesque list, and alternative list.

Wargamer, I find very little point to posting any list other than a competitive one on the internet for critiquing. If a list is purely for fun, you don't need other people telling you "this is inneffective" or "change this to my specifications". You're making a list purely for your enjoyment, and it may even be downright annoying being told to change it according to the views of others.

GK, I'm certianly not considering my play testing done, I simply wished to relate my most recent experience because of the joy it brought me. And I agree, his list did seem a bit dated. It was what he used to win tournaments with in 4th ed, and he hadn't changed it since that point. I'm looking for more opponents to test against still. The multimeltas were reduced by the energy fields, but still effective enough given that they were still causing a damage result at +1 on a 4, 5, or 6.

Thanks for the continued assistance guys. Gonna try to use this vs. another MEQ, in accordance with MechTau's advice.
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