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Dark Angels done... somewhat right?
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Old 13 Aug 2007, 17:01   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Coloma
Posts: 1,463
Default Dark Angels done... somewhat right?

So, I'm having some success with a new list I've been trying... Basically I haven't lost yet, but I really miss my terminators :'( .

Chaplain w/ Power Fist, Storm Bolter 130 points

Tech Marine w/ 4 Servo-Armed Servitors 200 points

Venerable Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon 145 points

Dreadnought w/ Twin Linked Las-Cannon, Missile Launcher 155 points

10 Marines w/ Sergeants Power Weapon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun 210 points

10 Marines w/ Sergeants Power Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun 220 points

10 Marines w/ Sergeants Power Fist, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun 220 points

6 Bikers w/ Sergeants Power Fist, 2 Melta-Guns
- Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta
- Land Speeder Tornado 415 points

5 Devastators w/ 4 Missile Launchers 170 points

Vindicator 125 points

Total: 1990 points

My usual opponents are a Black Templar horde player (usually fields at least 70+ men), a marine player whose love of min/maxing is legendary, a NidZilla player who affectionately calls his dakka fexes cowboys... and a mech based tau player. Again these are my usual opponents, I also am joining a league where I pretty much can face anything.

The reason I'm at 2000 points is that is what the league plays, and that is what the local tourneys are played at.

So... Tactics then:

1. The castle... Basically I run a vindicator with the 2 dreads and the techmarine and his servitors right behind. Makes it so that you have to destroy the vindicator to keep it from doing anything as immobilizing it or removing its cannon just gets fixed on my next turn on a 2+. The dreadnoughts are there for two reasons, first to force target priority checks when possible or failing that block line of sight from any enemies that I need to worry about. Secondly is that with a plasma cannon, a twin las-cannon and a missile launcher... well I have a lot of fire power for the enemy to worry about. Granted in an escalation based match I can't do this tactic, but matches played that I can it usually is very disconcerting to the enemy...

2. When possible, always split units. And I mean always. My one ravenwing unit is four scoring units, my three troop choices become six scoring units, add to that I may not want to shoot my plasma guns at the same units that I'm firing the plasma cannons at. So Always split your units.

3. Don't rely on the chaplain for anything. He's basically in there because I have to take an HQ. I would rather that 130 pts go somewhere else, like say another vindicator. Having said that he usually joins the power weapon wielding sergeant as a "suicide" squad. If he dies, oh well, at least he took something out with him... > .

4. The ravenwing bikes get split up with the power fisted sergeant going with the two non special weapon bikes, and the two special weapons get to go tank hunting. That is their only priority. If the enemy has no tanks then they also become a suicide squad. Meant entirely to be a speed bump to the enemy (is fun against a daemon bomb army... though siren makes it hard, just have to hope for first turn in that situation...)
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Old 13 Aug 2007, 18:24   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,096
Default Re: Dark Angels done... somewhat right?

Looks like a good start but definitiley not an "Optimal" list. I'd class it as a list good for "friendly" games.

Some suggestions on things your list would benifeit from.

1 - Replace chaplain with Samael on jetbike. He adds a lot to your army that you don't have. Rites of battle, fast scoring unit, fast combat response, one more heavy weapon. He looks expensive but he's worth it.

Points Required: 75 points.

2 - Another 5 marines in the dev squad, that way you can split it into two five man units, well worth it.

Points Required:: 75 points.

3 - Giving that one marine sargeant with a power sword a power fist.

Points Required: 10 points

I agree with you on the combat squad trick EXCEPT don't split your ravenwing bikes. The first turn charge is great with a buried power fist and leaving the squad at 6 fearless tougness five models makes them hard to beat down enough to eliminate that fist.

Things in this list that are bagge making you less efficient

Venerable dreadnought
Points Saved: 145

Dreadnought
Points Saved: 155

Tech Marine
Points saved: 200

Vindicator
Points Saved: 125

Total points required: 160
Total Points saved: 635
Total Point surplus: 475

The reason I say that your dreads and vindiciator aren't very good is quite simply they are fragile.

At 2000 points (hell at 1500 points) most army lists have sufficient fire power to kill all three of those vehichles by the end of turn 2, and they won't get more than 1 shot a piece, and thats only if you get first turn.

The techmarine and servitors take a lot of time to repair any vehichle since they can't move and repair in the same turn so they're just not that good, and if you want to use them as a combat unit I wouldn't. They are very fragile.

So overall just not worth taking that armour. In a space marine army, especially dark angels armour is pretty much all or nothing, go full mech with army support, or don't take any at all.

So now you're asking "What do I do with 475 points?"

Well you mentioned that you missed your termis, so there's a good start.

5 Death wing terminators w/ assault cannon
250 Points

Now your still lacking some speed in your list, so why not grab a couple more bikes?

3 Ravenwing Bikes w/ melta gun
Attack bike w/ multi melta
180

2 cheap and fast scoring units, more teleport homers for the termis and some very nice anti tank.

That leaves you with 45 points....

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Old 14 Aug 2007, 03:13   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Default Re: Dark Angels done... somewhat right?

Normally I would agree with you on most of your points, and to be honest I did make this list as a friendly...

But I'm beating tournament players with it. It might be the novelty of the castle that no one is expecting it, it might be that I have enough heavies in the army that I don't really care...

But it hasn't lost yet. Against tournament lists. Not friendly lists, tournament lists.

Do I miss the leadership 9/10 to everyone in the army? yeah, but when your leadership minimum is an 8 its not that tough to deal with. Do I need the extra heavy weapon in my army that Sammael would give me? I don't think so. I'm already at 5 missile launchers, 4 plasma cannons, a twin linked lascannon, a multi melta a heavy bolter and an assault cannon. Not to mention 5 plasma guns and 2 melta guns. If anything I have a lot more models and heavies than I usually take... Gotta love the deathwing!

If anything I'm thinking of taking out the land speeder, adding in a second vindicator and maybe taking a librarian just for the psychic hood.

Remember, no one expects the castle... >
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Old 14 Aug 2007, 03:30   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Default Re: Dark Angels done... somewhat right?

Wow, that sounds like a pretty good list.

How is the devastator squad working out? Four missile launchers sounds pretty deadly, however I think it might be better if you could have spread that firepower out a bit more, but whatever they shoot at must be one dead squad.

You also seem to be sticking to the dark angels "Fluff" with the plasma (notice I put fluff in quotations), how are the plasma cannons working out in the squads? I only have one currently that hides in my dev squad but I was thinking of getting more and placing them in the squads rather then missiles. Good choice with the plasma guns, they come in handy.

The vindicator any good? I sorta looked over this one but now considering the new GW model is comming out, I'm somewhat interested.

Deadnaughts sound good although I don't particually care for one being venerable, considering it takes up alot of points and dosn't give you too much.

And finally, the powerfists in the tactical squds may be a bit of an overkill, are they actually used or do you find them wasted? If you don't use them, thats 50 points you could spend on something else.


Overall, it looks pretty good, and if it's been working out for you, more power to you.


....Will consult this once I start making my 2000 point army lists...
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Old 14 Aug 2007, 09:27   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Dark Angels done... somewhat right?

1. The devastator squad. With their being four missile launchers pretty much most things they turn their attention to will be destroyed. The only exceptions being of course av 14 and armor 2+ saves, those are well... a bit harder. I actually decided against taking the unit as a ten man squad so that I could concentrate their fire power, otherwise I might be tempted to split their fire, which is good until you have two juicy targets, but you can't blow up one because of bad rolls. I'd rather blow up one a turn because of overkill than one a turn because I can't roll a dang 3+... (I have really bad rolls, which makes this list even more fun/scary/weird...)

2. The plasma cannon/ plasma gun units aren't so much fluff for me, its more that with most of my opponents being meq and my loathing to take assault cannons and lascannons... It's either that or more missile launchers, and missile launchers have a hard time against 2+ saves (I know, my deathwing loooooooovvveeesss :-* missile launchers...). Plasma cannons, even though the template won't get more than 2-3 marines under it (and thats if hes bunched together some) I feel is still better than taking a las cannon when possible, but to be honest... I think thats more of a personal feeling toward las cannons than anything else...

3. I love my vindicator. In third edition I couldn't stand it but for some reason now I don't go without taking one unless I'm playing pure deathwing. Probably because you no longer have to actually guess... : . And in all those games since I've started using it I've never had it blown up first turn that I can remember, and it almost always makes more than its points value back. Even if all its doing is soaking up enemy fire so that my other units can do what they need to do..

Thats why I think I came up with my castle maneuver. By having the dreadnoughts so close to the vindicator and the techmarine taking up the rear... that vindicator is going to be able to survive a lot more than what it should be able to. Basically a full castle (as my list is only a partial one... go figure, I come up with this really cool tactic that no one has seen before and I don't even make a full version. I think I need to bits order some more vindicator parts....) is two vindicators set exactly one inch from each other, the techmarine and his servitors will be placed directly between the two vindicators (its going to be a very tight fit if you did it right). The two dreadnoughts will be placed either to the side of each vindicator or one will be placed directly in front of where the two vindicators fronts meet.

What this does (and the main reason that the dreads should be venerable and have extra armor) is cause target priority tests to shoot the vindicator, it gives some juicy targets other than the vindicator and the dreads usually will counter charge anything that thinks it would be funny to blow up the vindicators in close combat. Now if you only take one vindicator the 2 dreads will be on each side and the techmarine will be in back. That means that the enemy (unless they've circled around or deepstruck) won't be able to even see the techmarine. So you don't have to worry about using him for anything but keeping the vindicator rolling. Although at this time he also becomes a counter-assault unit if something tries to hth the vindicator.

As far as why I would waste the points and do something like this? A strength ten pie plate that ignores pretty much any armor and I don't have to roll to hit, just to scatter? Yes please, I'll have some more! Two of them is just plain rude. I know the side and rear armor is weak and the cannons range is short... but with proper placement you can get around both those obstacles, and even one decent hit will more than make up its points (last game I aimed it at a shooty templar unit to take out a lascannon that I was worried about only to have it scatter back and to the left 6 inches... directly onto the head of helbrecht. He failed his 4+ invulnerable save and I made a crap load of points... still don't know why he took helbrecht against me though...)

4. Dreadnoughts are lots of fun for me. I know with their armor and slow movement that they are usually an easy target for the opponent... so what. If you place a model out in the open with no support of any kind then you deserve to lose those points. Sorry, but you get a lot of people out there that won't take certain units because they're too fragile/not powerful enough/not worth the points. The thing is if you don't use them properly they aren't going to be worth the points. Theres a thread on Bolter and chainsword's Dark Angels board that has players listing what units they would never use in the new Dark Angels codex... Numbers 1-4 are: Scouts (now that they are an elite they aren't worth taking), Techmarines (not being an independant character now he's not worth taking), Vindicators (bad side and rear armor and short range) and assault marines (can only give the sergeant melta bombs, no flamer option, 5-10 man squad, rather take a ravenwing squad... gotta admit that I'm guilty of this one...) Of the four most named units that no one takes anymore, 3 I try to use as much as I can. I would rather take a unit of sniper scouts over a fully loaded unit of veterans anyday. Add to that my unit of 10 w/ sniper rifles are going to cost less than that unit of 8 veterans fully kitted...

As for the venerable, the ability to force your opponent to reroll the dice when he gets that glancing six. I personally believe that is worth 20 points. I honestly wish there were an easier way to come up with 10 more points so that I can put it on the second dreadnought also.

5. The power fists usually get used. I have a tendency to run the powerfist/plasma gun units up to take objectives or counter assault/speed bump the enemy as soon as possible. Without the power fists I wouldn't be able to take on as much as I usually have them take on. I've charged monstrous creatures that I wouldn't have had a chance with just a power weapon, and though four men are usually easier to kill than nine, its still usually enough to get that sergeant where I need him. If anything I wish the one sergeant I built with the power weapon had been built with a power fist.
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