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Clash of Ravens.
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Old 16 Mar 2007, 10:25   #1 (permalink)
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Default Clash of Ravens.

I love Ravenwing. Problem is, I love the old style more.

Something about the New Ravenwing doesn't gel with me... looks good, feels good, but isn't good. It just doesn't wow me.


So, I decided to settle it the old-fashioned way... a clash of the titans! My Old Ravenwing will fight itself, albeit in "updated" form. The winner shall be crowned "True Ravenwing", and the loser forgotten forever... providing the New list loses. :P


The whole thing should be wrapped up by Sunday.

The Old Ravenwing:

Master of The Ravenwing - 255pts.

First Squad - 290pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Biker with Meltagun.
3x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Attack Bike with Multi-Melta.

Second Squad - 290pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Biker with Meltagun.
3x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Attack Bike with Multi-Melta.

Third Squad - 290pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Biker with Meltagun.
3x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Attack Bike with Multi-Melta.

Tempest Alpha - 125pts.
Land Speeder Tempest with Jink.

Tempest Beta - 125pts.
Land Speeder Tempest with Jink.

Tempest Gamma - 125pts.
Land Speeder Tempest with Jink.

Total - 1,500pts.

[size=8pt]Heresy!
The astute among you may note that, using the old Codex, this list should be 1,545pts... Now, the reason for this is because where possible rules have been lifted from the "current" Codex. For one thing, it just simplifies things a great deal, and it means even new players can understand how the Codex works. As Bikers went down in cost, Ravenwing Bikers have been dropped by the same margin. In addition, both the Master and the Tempests are allowed to Deep Strike (every other Land Speeder variant can now...). The advantage of House Rules is that you can just ignore anything that doesn't make sense...[/size]



The New Ravenwing:

Master of the Ravenwing in Land Speeder - 205pts.

First Squad - 345pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Bikers with Meltagun.
4x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter.

Second Squad - 295pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Bikers with Meltagun.
4x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Attack Bike with Multi-Melta.

Third Squad - 295pts.
1x Veteran Sergeant with Power Sword.
1x Ravenwing Biker with Meltagun.
4x Ravenwing Bikers.
1x Attack Bike with Multi-Melta.

Tempest Alpha - 120pts.
Land Speeder Tempest.

Tempest Beta - 120pts.
Land Speeder Tempest.

Tempest Gamma - 120pts.
Land Speeder Tempest.

Total - 1,500pts.
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Old 16 Mar 2007, 13:24   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Actually Ravenwing land speeders can't deep strike.

The only land speeder in a dark angels army that MIGHT be able to deep strike is the master of the Ravenwing.

In his bestiary entry it doesn't mention deep strike as a special rule for him but in his army list entry the Master on Speeder does have deep strike listed as an ability.

Also what the hell is a Land Speeder tempest? Last I heard you could use either Tornadoes (100 points in the DA Codex) or Typhoons (75 points in the DA codex). Where'd these 125 point speeders come from?

Finally how can you have a fair fight when you've arbitrarily decided to simply give one side more points than the other?

You think the new rules are no good, yet you're using the new points costs to represent the old rules? Well I guess you're not showing any favoritism here.

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Old 16 Mar 2007, 13:43   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstead
Actually Ravenwing land speeders can't deep strike.

The only land speeder in a dark angels army that MIGHT be able to deep strike is the master of the Ravenwing.

In his bestiary entry it doesn't mention deep strike as a special rule for him but in his army list entry the Master on Speeder does have deep strike listed as an ability.
I'll double-check that when I get the chance, but I am sure they can all Deep Strike...

Quote:
Also what the hell is a Land Speeder tempest? Last I heard you could use either Tornadoes (100 points in the DA Codex) or Typhoons (75 points in the DA codex). Where'd these 125 point speeders come from?
Imperial Armour Volume 2.

Quote:
Finally how can you have a fair fight when you've arbitrarily decided to simply give one side more points than the other?
There is nothing "arbitrary" about it.

By comparing the old Dark Angels Codex to the old Space Marine Codex, we can determine the cost of all special rules given to the Ravenwing.

By adding these costs to the new Space Marine Codex, we determine a way to field Ravenwing using that Codex.

Quote:
You think the new rules are no good, yet you're using the new points costs to represent the old rules? Well I guess you're not showing any favoritism here.
I think Games Workshop should have done what I have done; updated the rules, not re-written them. Of course there is favouritism here, otherwise I wouldn't be bothering with the head-to-head!
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Old 16 Mar 2007, 13:53   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargamer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falstead
Actually Ravenwing land speeders can't deep strike.

The only land speeder in a dark angels army that MIGHT be able to deep strike is the master of the Ravenwing.

In his bestiary entry it doesn't mention deep strike as a special rule for him but in his army list entry the Master on Speeder does have deep strike listed as an ability.
I'll double-check that when I get the chance, but I am sure they can all Deep Strike...
Wanna put a wager on it?

I still think what you're doing isn't really a valid experiment. Either compare the two codexes as is head to head, or set up what is essentially a pre determined game.

Also are you going to be playing against yourself or actually getting someone to command the other army?

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Falstead, you're a genius!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farseer_Emlyn
Gah! Not a silly Canadian. Can't Falstead ever be wrong?!?!? ;D
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Originally Posted by Rafe (Autarch Kiardras)
My god.... the sarcasm there nearly shorted out my computer screen Nice.
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Old 16 Mar 2007, 13:55   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Someone else can take the New Ravenwing. Anyway, I've got the list up (it's done from memory, so may not be accurate...).
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Old 17 Mar 2007, 02:07   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Well i am interested in this sort of experiment i don't think your going about it right. first off it sounds like instead of old vs. new its new vs. wargamers version.
oh and by the way DA land speeders cant deepstrike except the master of the ravenwings speeder.
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Old 17 Mar 2007, 03:52   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeseman
Well i am interested in this sort of experiment i don't think your going about it right. first off it sounds like instead of old vs. new its new vs. wargamers version.
oh and by the way DA land speeders cant deepstrike except the master of the ravenwings speeder.
I do have to agree whith cheeseman here. It doesn seems as if you WANT the new Ravenwing list to lose. It seems less objective than the Old Vs New Deathwing battle was. You shouldn't be lifting any rules, if the list is over, you really need to cut the fat, otherwise the results will be slanted (As the old list does have more points on it.) I understand the whole new players thing, but it may be better to see how the OLD lst worked.
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Old 18 Mar 2007, 12:56   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

I think people somewhat miss the point... the "old" list is, in my opinion, how Ravenwing should be. It is an up to date version of their list. Playing under the old Codex rules is about as valid as comparing 2nd Edition Eldar to 3rd...


In short, both lists are written to be used under the current rule-set. The difference is that mine is unofficial.

Edit: Wanted to use Photoshop to create the maps, but it's failing miserably...
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Originally Posted by Tom Norman
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Old 18 Mar 2007, 13:22   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

i understand it is updated what i don't understand is why this would change points costs. i think is should just be old vs. new codex with 4th edition rules.
oh and try using paint it. it will take longer but people have done batreps with them before and they come out ok.
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Old 18 Mar 2007, 13:34   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Clash of Ravens.

You clearly don't understand.


The army I am using, the "Old" Ravenwing, is the 3rd Edition rules brought up to 4th Edition spec... which largely consists of updating the weapons, options and unit costs (there are people who told me I had to use the 3rd Edition assault cannon when using the Ravenwing...).

I think my list is better than the one GW did. This is meant to determine that.

Incidentally, the "New" Ravenwing got hammered on Friday by Ultramarines, so things aren't looking good for them.
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