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1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 04:02   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7
Default 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

I started playing Warhammer 40k this summer with a friend. But then I found out about some great deals on ebay. Since I've started I've really only been able to play my Mech Tau friend and in order to make our games playable I had to get some unit counters like ASMs. Otherwise it would be unlikely for me to win as the SM Battleforce is MUCH worse than the Tau Battleforce.

I was originally planning to be custom making forces for each specific mission type. Since I was thinking that fluff wise the Blood Ravens would know what they wanted to do ahead of time and be sure to have the right tools for the right jobs all the time. I wasn't planning to tailor forces against specific armies as that would seem like it won't make me too many friends. However instead I decided it was better to create one balanced army...

a) Too much work and I don't have a good army builder program around yet.
b) Only need to carry what I need.
c) Seemed to be generally accepted as the “fair” thing to do.

Anyway, each squad has their own purpose, and depending on the mission type, it may change. Here is my list...


General Force
TOTAL FORCE COST = 1499


HQ
Epistolary (10 SM* + Lib)
-Veil of Time (as replacement power)
-Fury of the Ancients (as second power)
-Bolt Pistol
Total: 129

Reclusiarch (8 ASM* + Chap)

Jump Pack
Bolt Pistol
Total: 106

Troops
Scout Squad (6 Scouts)
Base x 6
Sniper Rifle x 5
Heavy Bolter x 1
Total: 108

Tactical Squad (10 SM + Lib*)
Base x 10
Vet Sarge + Power Fist
True Grit + Counter
Flamer
Lascannon
Purity Seal
Total: 233

Tactical Squad (8 SM)
Base x 8
Infil
Lascannon
Plasma gun
Total: 169

Elites
Terminator Squad (5 Terminators)
Base x 5
Assault Cannon x 2
Chainfist x 2
Total: 250

Fast Attack
Assault Space Marines (8 ASM + Chap*)
Base x 8
Plasma Pistol x 2
Vet Sarge + Power Fist
Teleport Homer
Total: 221

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (6 SM)
Base x 6
Infil
Missile x 4
Total: 188

Whirlwind (Probably Castellan Missiles aka mines)
Base
Storm Bolter
Total: 95

* Implies that HQ and Troop choices should meet up and move as a unit.

***You can pretty much skip this part if you're more experienced and already know what I'm going to do with what I have, but I suggest you read this if you are looking at my list and not understanding why something is the way it is!***

I suppose the engine that makes my army work would be the Scouts, Devastators and the 8 man Tactical Squad. They are all infiltrating so the idea is that I should be able to grab a good overlooking vantage point so I can effectively lock down or at least control a good chunk of the map. Not to let the other player to leave cover without being smacked by 4 missiles. The scouts were used instead of a second devastator squad in order to be “more fair” having more points into the troop choices as well as picking off monstrous characters should I encounter them. The 8 man TS works to keep tanks away from other units and can take a lot of damage before going down.

The actual heart of the force that should actually do most of the work are the Assault Squad and the 10 man Tactical Squad. They are to be joined by the Chaplain and Librarian respectively. It's sort of a shame I can't infiltrate these two squads either, but it's probably just as well for what I'm trying to do with them. In normal meat grinder missions the AS works as the hammer, as well as going after enemy heavy support choices. The TS works as the anvil where everything revolves around getting it to where it needs to be. The most important roles of both HQ choices are to allow their squads to re-roll their hits. Leadership scores are a good bonus though. Purity seal on the TS is to allow me more flexibility should I need to fall back, also it used up the last 2 points I had kicking around. Ideally the AS should be the spearhead and the TS be the bulk of the main force.

The AS is given the Teleport Homer. In missions where an objective area needs to be held, the Terminators are brought in to hold ground. In Missions with objective items Terminators are used to cover the AS run with it. If the AS is in trouble Terminators are either used to hide behind, to force leadership checks if anyone wishes to shoot at the AS, or for help in close ranged vehicle busting. Pretty much they are there to bail the AS out of trouble or to hold important map points as the AS goes to the next area.

Finally we have the Whirlwind. Originally I didn't really expect to put one into the list but I had somewhere between 80 to 100 points free. However it probably is more important than I originally though. In most cases it should be fairly far back, and it's job is to seal my flanks and slow down ground units of the other player. In some cases it is used to force horde armies into choke points I'll set up with my other units. However if I am ever against shooting armies and find myself pinned behind small bits of cover, I can lob missiles at them hoping to force them into closing in and fighting on my terms.

Now, I have a few questions.
1) Is this list legal? Have I added points wrong? broke some rule chooisng powers for the Librarian or anything like that?
2) Does this list work? Are there any glaring weaknesses I am not seeing?
3) Would this list make friends? Am I being cheap using this list or breaking some unspoken social contract among 40k players?
4) Lastly, are there any question or comments? I know it's a long read... has anyone gotten any ideas from this?
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 06:31   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

First off remove the individual point cost for upgrades and units. The final total for each unit is fine but otherwise is a copyright infringement that could get TO in trouble. Just letting you know you wont be zapped by lightning or anything.

Quote:

General Force
TOTAL FORCE COST = 1499


HQ
Epistolary (10 SM* + Lib)
Base
-Veil of Time (as replacement power)
-Fury of the Ancients (as second power)
-Bolt Pistol x 1 = 1
Total: 129

Reclusiarch (8 ASM* + Chap)

Base
Jump Pack
Bolt Pistol x 1
Total: 106
Looks good and I see you have a use for each, neither is over the top and their equipment looks good, though I would give both Terminator honors for the extra attack. Also the Epistolaries powers use the second points cost for his powers. Ill quote: "Cost: +3 Points (Epistolary +9 Points)." From the Space Marine codex page 26.

Quote:
Troops
Scout Squad (6 Scouts)
Base x 6
Sniper Rifle x 5
Heavy Bolter x
Total: 108
Looks good, the heavy bolter and sniper rifle mix is interesting but could prove useful.

Quote:
Tactical Squad (10 SM + Lib*)
Base x 10
Vet Sarge + Power Fist
True Grit + Counter
Flamer
Lascannon
Purity Seal
Total: 233
The flamer and Lascannon mix is a bit odd and impractical. I would suggest a plasma gun to mix with the heavy weapon. Otherwise if you intend to be moving its more cost effective simply not to take a heavy weapon and get an assault weapon only.

Quote:
Tactical Squad (8 SM)
Base x 8
Infi
Lascannon
Plasma gun
Total: 169
Looks like a good fire support squad. Even numbers which is good and no over the top upgrades.

Quote:
Elites
Terminator Squad (5 Terminators)
Base x 5
Assault Cannon x 2
Chainfist x 2
Total: 250
The chain fists are probably not the best spent points but they can be effective when you need them. Its up to personal preference but if you need to shave points down Id do it here.

Quote:
Fast Attack
Assault Space Marines (8 ASM + Chap*)
Base x 8
Plasma Pistol x 2
Vet Sarge + Power Fist
Teleport Homer
Total: 221
Looking good, nothing for me to talk about here really.

Quote:
Heavy Support
Devastator Squad (6 SM)
Base x 6
Infil
Missile x 4
Total: 188
Missil Launchers are a good multi purpose weapon and are cheap. They can even damage Land Raiders or drop small blasts, not bad. But you could think about swapping a couple out for heavy weapons from time to time. Lascannons and Plasma Cannons are better bought in Tactical squads but Devs can take lots of Missil Launchers and Heavy Bolters. Might want to give these guys a vet sergeant with purity seals just to make sure they arent running as without a captain or master their leadership is only 8 and they could well run away off the board or out of LOS etc. They auto regroup but if suddenly they are behind the terrain they were perched in that can be a problem.

Quote:
Whirlwind (Probably Castellan Missiles aka mines)
Base
Storm Bolter
Total: 95
Good and cheap and very useful. Nice little addition.

Quote:
Now, I have a few questions.
1) Is this list legal? Have I added points wrong? broke some rule chooisng powers for the Librarian or anything like that?
2) Does this list work? Are there any glaring weaknesses I am not seeing?
3) Would this list make friends? Am I being cheap using this list or breaking some unspoken social contract among 40k players?
4) Lastly, are there any question or comments? I know it's a long read... has anyone gotten any ideas from this?
1) All things considered its pretty good, just a little points problem with the Epistolary. Thats all I noticed though but I wasnt checking every points cost.

2) It looks well balanced though you could use a few more heavy weapons, for 1500 points you may well find that a couple lascannons and some missil launchers wont be enough but it really depends on your opponent. But all in all the list looks pretty good and you should have enough heavy weapons and low ap weapons to go around, Id prefere more but thats just me.

3) The list is not overpowered by any means, you arent min/maxing, you arent going overboard on nasty tooled characters, command squads, doing cheasy things etc. In that regard it should be quite fine. However some people might get pissed if you win too much thats not really a matter of the lists though, at least not entirely.

4) Uh at 2:30 AM I dont have a whole lot to say except welcome to 40k and Tau Online. Your army looks good and you look like you have a highly competent grasp of each units capabilities and your armies strategies as a whole. Just remember that strategy can crumble when the game starts and inovation and thinking on the fly are also important but I bet you can do that too. You should do just fine. Good luck in your battles, let us know how they go.
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 13:29   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,087
Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

First of all, welcome to Tau Online and the Hobby!

I removed the individual points costs for upgrades and units. As Vash said this is against forum rules and policies. Make sure you read the 'sticky' threads in the boards before you are going to post something. This all insures we can all have fun.
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 13:54   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7
Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Very sorry about that!!! I'm new here... it won't happen again!
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 14:32   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7
Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
First off remove the individual point cost for upgrades and units. The final total for each unit is fine but otherwise is a copyright infringement that could get TO in trouble. Just letting you know you wont be zapped by lightning or anything.
Quote:
Looks good and I see you have a use for each, neither is over the top and their equipment looks good, though I would give both Terminator honors for the extra attack. Also the Epistolaries powers use the second points cost for his powers. Ill quote: "Cost: +3 Points (Epistolary +9 Points)." From the Space Marine codex page 26.
So it costs additional points for both upgrades powers? I thought only the second power was at the specially stated point cost. That's pretty expensive then...

Quote:
Looks good, the heavy bolter and sniper rifle mix is interesting but could prove useful.
Really? I've seen this config around. It's good because the Heavy Bolters have the same range, and help with that little extra bit of infantry stopping power.

Quote:
The flamer and Lascannon mix is a bit odd and impractical. I would suggest a plasma gun to mix with the heavy weapon. Otherwise if you intend to be moving its more cost effective simply not to take a heavy weapon and get an assault weapon only.
I was thinking to have the Lascannon should I ever need to take out any tanks or dangerious enemy units that I come across. Then again, 2 extra attacks that aren't bad. Yeah, I'll drop the guy back down to a bolter and use the points for one of the two terminator honors I need.


Quote:
Looks like a good fire support squad. Even numbers which is good and no over the top upgrades.
I was originally going to put in 6 guys, but that would be min/maxing. I figured people would go after this squad too and it was best to let them take a few hits. I was considering getting true grit too, but it seems sort of a waste. A question though... would I have to pay the points for each model with a bolter? or each model in the entire squad?


Quote:
The chain fists are probably not the best spent points but they can be effective when you need them. Its up to personal preference but if you need to shave points down Id do it here.
Well the AS has pretty limited tank busting capability. I was thinking that the Chainfists would help a great deal in that. I'd be able to kill... just about anything in the game with them is that right? Anyhow, problem is I sort of wanted to play a "What you see is what you get" game, but the Chainfists came with the models over e-bay. I have a feeling I might need them though.

Quote:
Missil Launchers are a good multi purpose weapon and are cheap. They can even damage Land Raiders or drop small blasts, not bad. But you could think about swapping a couple out for heavy weapons from time to time. Lascannons and Plasma Cannons are better bought in Tactical squads but Devs can take lots of Missil Launchers and Heavy Bolters. Might want to give these guys a vet sergeant with purity seals just to make sure they arent running as without a captain or master their leadership is only 8 and they could well run away off the board or out of LOS etc. They auto regroup but if suddenly they are behind the terrain they were perched in that can be a problem.
The purity seal makes sense... but I don't know if it's really worth it to for the 15 points making the guy a vet sarge. Seems pretty expensive doesn't it? Maybe I should consider swiching up the army list to get a commander with the Librarian for a larger point list?

I'm also thinking of removing the Storm Bolter on the Whirlwind, chances are it should have been placed somewhere with okay defense, and if they are intent on killing it, I'm not sure how much a single storm bolter is going to do... I'm thinking of removing it to add Terminator honors on one of my HQ's.

Quote:
2) It looks well balanced though you could use a few more heavy weapons, for 1500 points you may well find that a couple lascannons and some missil launchers wont be enough but it really depends on your opponent. But all in all the list looks pretty good and you should have enough heavy weapons and low ap weapons to go around, Id prefere more but thats just me.
I was thinking about that. They tell me that Plasma Cannons are never worth their point cost, I was expecting powerfists and chainfists to be able to deal with other vechicles the lascannons and missiles can't. Is that reasonable to expect?

Quote:
3) The list is not overpowered by any means, you arent min/maxing, you arent going overboard on nasty tooled characters, command squads, doing cheasy things etc. In that regard it should be quite fine. However some people might get pissed if you win too much thats not really a matter of the lists though, at least not entirely.
Well, I'd have to win at least once first for that to be an issue. Although it's not like I have too many other to play currently either...

Quote:
4) Uh at 2:30 AM I dont have a whole lot to say except welcome to 40k and Tau Online. Your army looks good and you look like you have a highly competent grasp of each units capabilities and your armies strategies as a whole. Just remember that strategy can crumble when the game starts and inovation and thinking on the fly are also important but I bet you can do that too. You should do just fine. Good luck in your battles, let us know how they go.
Thanks!
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Old 21 Nov 2006, 15:06   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Well first off double posting is not exactly a great idea, there is a modify feature at the top right of your post once its posted that lets you modify it. Once again just FYI its not a terrible mistake to make and you kinda chose the best place to make such mistakes in an army list board as no grumpy somebody is going to drill you about it. Just remember the modify feature is there in future.

I am not sure about the True Grit rule with mixed squads. Ive never seen a case where that came up. However I would say its points better spent elsewhere, with True Grit you dont get the extra attack on the charge and you usually dont want long drawn out combats anyway, one or two rounds then you want to be moving onto another target not still slugging it out.

[qoute]Well the AS has pretty limited tank busting capability. I was thinking that the Chainfists would help a great deal in that. I'd be able to kill... just about anything in the game with them is that right? Anyhow, problem is I sort of wanted to play a "What you see is what you get" game, but the Chainfists came with the models over e-bay. I have a feeling I might need them though.[/quote]

Powerfists can kill anything in regular 40k aswell, Im not sure about Super Heavy tanks from Forgeworld but you shouldnt be facing those very often, I certainly never have. Assault Cannons are actually very good tank hunters because of the rending rule. To damage a vehicle if they get a 6 they get to roll another dice thanks to the rending rule. So since an assault cannon is str 6 a roll of 6 would make it 12 and then anywhere from 13-18 which will penetrate even a Land Raider. With 4 shots per Assault Cannon and with you hitting on 3s the chances of getting a penetrating hit on a Land Raider at least once per turn are pretty darn good. Once these guys come in and can move and assault they can probably deal with any armor left alive around them. So yes it looks like you have plenty of anti tank fire, Im simply used to facing a lot of heavily mechanised lists, my own Tau army runs 9 skimmers and my usual opponents these days are Dark Eldar (almost always mechanised) and mechanised Thousand Sons, so Im used to facing 4, 5, 6+ vehicles on the field that need killin quickly. For a take all commers and balanced force you should be good though, not taking into acount luck.

A Master boosts the entire armies leadership to 10 as long as he is alive. This can be very useful, even marines can fail their leadership checks and you dont want valuable heavy weapons to fall back out of position so purity seals, terminator honors etc arent a bad investment, not exactly cheap but they can really come in handy. Its up to personal preference though whether to go vet sergeant + purity seal or Master to try and keep static squads from being blasted back.

I personally like Plasma Cannons, they really scare Terminators but in your list you dont need any. A Techmarine with a Plasma Cannon Gun Servitor is nice to have from time to time for example. The signum of the Tech Marine allows the plasma cannon to re-roll its shot if it misses which is very nice. Plasma and Lascannons just arent that great in Dev squads because of their significantly boosted cost.

I hope my rambling proves more informative than confusing.
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Old 24 Nov 2006, 06:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: May 2006
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Posts: 562
Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Just to be clear; when it comes to the Librarians the first points cost is used for a replacement power and the second cost is used if you are taking a secondary power. You start with the lone power "Storm of the Emperors Wrath"; presuming that you are using an Epistolary, you use the first points cost when replacing the original power. The only time that you use the second points cost is when you are buying the second power. Hence, only the Epistolary will ever pay that points cost. I do not have my codex on me at the time but I should in the next few days so if you want a direct quote from the book then I can get it to you then. Just wanted to clear that up.

Crimson Hawk
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Unfortunately I then glued it so that the multi-melta was sticking out 90 degrees to the side of the tank, so it looks like the Adeptus Mechanicus guy is doing a drive-by.

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Old 24 Nov 2006, 14:21   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Personally, I wouldn't bother taking more than one power on your Librarian... THe points add up too quickly on the Epistolary, and I really only find use for one power per battle (I use Veil of Time, BEST POWER EVER), I used to take Might of Heroes becuase 'I never knew when it might come in handy,' but it was always better for me to use Veil of Time...
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Old 27 Nov 2006, 20:47   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: 1500 Pt Blood Ravens, Please Review?

Good point, though I vaugely remember an article somewhere stating that Familiars let you use more than one power per turn but I haven't been able to find it since then and the codex says nothing about it. For the whole anvil tactic, I would have to agree, Veil of Time is probably your best bet. Being able to re-roll everything can come in very handy!

On a related note, what exactly does a familiar do and/or where can I find the information? Thanks.

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Unfortunately I then glued it so that the multi-melta was sticking out 90 degrees to the side of the tank, so it looks like the Adeptus Mechanicus guy is doing a drive-by.

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