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Vulcan 29 Jul 2006 05:23

A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
I have taken the time to mess around with my codex, and put a list together.* One that I think is a very well balanced list.* I was actually surprised with what I put together.* Every unit entry was different, but not ridiculous in a sense they would have no purpose, and are cost efficient. (Well maybe not the Landradier entry... they're so expensive! And I know a lot of people will say take the Land Raider Crusader)

Any advice would be appreciated, and remember I play against Tau and Eldar all the time, and every once in awhile I have a chaos (Iron warriors) opponent.

HQ:
Force Commander (master)
-power sword
-storm bolter
8x marines, ccw and bolt pistol
1x Company champion with standard gear: power sword, bolt pistol/combat shield
Land Raider Transport
-pintle-mounted storm bolter
Total: 510 pts

Elites:
Terminator Squad
-2x Terminators
-1x Terminator Sergeant (power sword and storm bolter)
-2x Terminators, Assault cannons
Total:240 pts

Dreadnought
-Venerable
-extra armor
-smoke launchers
-Drop pod
Total:163 pts

Heavy Support:
Predator Annihilator
-Lascannon sponsons
-extra armor
-smoke launchers
Total:153 pts

Whirlwind
Total: 85 pts

Troops:
Tactical Squad
-8x Marine
-1x Marine,* plasma gun or melta* * (same pts value)
-1x Sergeant,* Bolter or Bolt pistol and ccw
Rhino Transport
-extra armor
-smoke launchers
Total: 218 pts

Tactical squad
5x Marine
1x Marine lascannon
Razorback Transport
-extra armor
-smoke launchers
Total: 183 pts

Scout Squad
-7x scouts, sniper rifles (including Sergeant)
-1x scout, missile launcher
Total: 149 pts

Fast Attack:
Assault Marine Squad
-6x Assault marine
-1x Assault marine, flamer
-1x Assault Marine, plasma pistol
-1x Sergeant, Terminator honors, power fist and bolt pistol
Total: 238 pts

Land Speeder
-Multimelta
Total: 65 pts

Grand Total: 2004 pts

* * * Maybe I should consider a LandRadier Crusader instead, because the original LandRadier seems to be too multi-purpose.* But then what if i didn't take a LandRadier at all...? It just appalls me to look at their points cost! If I replaced that LandRadier with a rhino, I could get a vindicator and more! But turning down a LandRadier is like perposterus for a space marine! It seems like the LandRadier is a must have for all space marine players, because it is only unique to us! (oh and those heretic marines...)* It has the highest armor value in the game...

I have also thought about taking the drop pod away from the Dread, and using those 30 pts for Power of the Machine spirit on the Pred Annihilator. Is this a good idea?

So what are your thoughts on this list? Good and bad.
* *

Howloutloud 29 Jul 2006 08:59

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
overall ok, however I do have some questions and thoughts.

1. why did you give your commander a storm bolter? his unit is obviously based on close combat, wouldn't he have been better off with a second hth weapon like a bolt pistol or a pair of lightning claws? (don't feel bad though, in my dark angels my commander is very similar, only with the sword of secrets instead of a regular power sword)

2. why didn't you take a veteran sergeant in the command squad? that would have allowed you to give the unit terminator honors making them that much better in hth.

3. Comment: I think that right now you would be better off with a rhino than the land raider, especially since points are always going to be tight, and the command squad is a very hth oriented unit. yes you can charge out of a land raider, but if you move it full force at the enemy you will lose the ability to shoot all of its guns.

4. why the smoke launchers on the venerable dreadnought? since it will be podding into the game, you will want to fire it the turn it lands. it seems that those 3 points would be better off spent somewhere else.

5. Comment: your heavy choices are decent considering you will be facing eldar and tau mostly, however you might be better off with the annihilator having heavy bolter sponsons instead. you lose the 2 extra lascannons but gain 4 more shots that eat through both tau and eldar armor, you can move up to 6" and still fire all three guns, and most importantly you save yourself several points that can be used for other things. But this one is a personal preference so take it how you will.

6. Comment: your troops actually look really good, and I can understand why you don't outright choose between the melta and plasma. In considering the 2 armies that you will face the most however I would say go with the melta as you can always use the tank popping ability, and the amount of 2+ saves that you'll face that need the plasma will be minimized. Also as a personal note, I don't care for razorbacks normally, however if you plan on keeping the unit still to fire the lascannon it could be ok. just seems a little expensive to get another twin linked lascannon into the army.

7. why are you mixing the special weapons in your assault squad? before I get into this, I should mention that I do not like flamers as their limited range does not make up for the auto hits that the template give you. add to that you lose an attack from the model that has the flamer, and I really try to avoid giving them to assault squads. having said that, if you want a flamer in your assault squad you really should go all out and get both of them. Or go the other way and give both guys the plasma pistol as they will still get all of their attacks that way.

Overall not too bad, a few tweeks here and there and you should have a really good list. Enjoy. :)

SpacePuppy 29 Jul 2006 14:09

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
Looks pretty okay to me. It's Close Combaty but at the same time shooty...that's good.

Oh, and The LR isn't a marine exclusive, Deamonhunters and Witch hunters can also take this take. (yes, even the crusader!) But i only know that because my friend plays GK (and he has a land raider) so don't feel bad.

Tom Norman 29 Jul 2006 14:57

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
HQ 1
Saving points:
  • I agree with Howloutloud (first time for everything right?); bin the Storm Bolter.
  • I would also get rid of a couple bog standard Marines (so you can afford my recommendations if you choose to take them).
Spending points:
  • Give your commander a Bolt Pistol instead.
  • Give him Terminator Honours to get another attack...it makes a difference when he's swinging a power weapon at initiative 5.
  • I also agree that the Sergeant should be upgraded to veteran status and given a powerfist, but not the entire squad along with him.
  • Upgrade the unit with the 'Furious Charge' special skill, it'll make them fearsome indeed...two strength 5 power weapons striking at high initiative? Pretty scary stuff. Then there's the powerfist too! A power sword for the Sergeant is certainly a viable option and would make even greater use of the 'Furious Charge' special skill, but I feel you may be lacking Tank/Monsterous creature killing power.
-35 pts

[hr]

Elites 1
Spending points:
  • I recommend an additional Terminator here. I know it's expensive but it's harder to reduce a Terminator squad to below half strength if there's six of them.
  • Give them the 'Tank Hunters' special skill and teleport behind enemy armour...a tactic that mysteriously seems to elude many Marine players, desite its terrifying effectiveness. Assault Cannons upgraded with the 'Tank Hunters' special skill are statistically nearly twice as effective against AV10 and AV11.
-58 pts

Elites 2
Saving points:
  • Lose the smoke launchers; a shooty Dreadnought deploying by drop pod won't need them. He'll want to be shooting and assaulting every turn if possible and when he's that close to the enemy, he should still be assaulting even when shaken.
Spending points:
  • Deploying by Drop Pod warrants the copious use of a heavy flamer. Dead handy for burning the Tau out of cover and negating the 4+ save shared by Fire Warriors and Aspect Warriors alike.
-7 pts

[hr]

Troops 1
Saving points:
  • Drop a couple Marines if I were you. My recommendations would be incomplete if I didn't tell you where to get the points to afford them. Besides, it'll be less painful when their Rhino gets blown up.
+30 pts

Troops 2
Saving points:
  • Drop a couple sniper scouts. Same reason I'm afraid. I know I'm making your troops a little thin, but I think the advantages conferred by my various recommendations are worth half a dozen fewer boots on the ground.
+36 pts

[hr]

Fast attack 1
Saving points:
  • Drop a Marine here...nine is an odd number and as such not recommended for a Marine squad.
  • I agree with Howloutloud in respect to mixed special weapon choices. However, I say you drop the plasma pistol; they're dangerous and you just don't need the additional AP power.
Spending points:
  • Underpriced by 1 point - Flamers cost 6 points not 5.
  • I disagree with Howloutloud regarding flamers, I have two in my assault squad and they're extremely effective (admittedly, against Guard and Eldar Rangers more so than Apsect/Fire Warriors). Assault troops are one of the few units that can really be expected to put the flamer to good use, because of their mobility and speed. Their short range is only an issue for squads with longer ranged firepower at their disposal; a unit with a maximum range of 12" that is expected to close with the enemy has no problems in ths respect. The damage they can inflict far outweighs the two attacks the unit loses in close combat. Take two of them
+15 pts

Fast attack 2
Spending points:
  • Add a Heavy Flamer for only 10 points. It may seem absurd to have such conflicting weapons, and it's true that only one of them will likely see use in a game, but the flexibility offered is too valuable to pass up.
-10 pts

[hr]

Heavy Support 1
Saving points:
  • The Predator doesn't need smoke launchers.
  • Nor does it need extra armour.
  • Like Howloutloud said; swap out the Lascannons for Heavy Bolters.
+23 pts

Heavy Support 2
Saving points:
  • The Land Raider is a great choice for the command squad, a Rhino won't get them to the front line; some will die when it gets blown up, others will die as they claw their way from the wreckage...they'll be lucky to get a charge in, and it's an expensive unit to waste. Also, it can lead the way for the weaker transport vehicles. However, the Storm Bolter is an expensive and fairly pointless addition.
+10 pts

[hr]

[size=18pt]Original army list total: 2004[/size]
[size=18pt]Total surplus points: -4[/size]

[size=18pt]Total adjustment: +4[/size]

[size=18pt]Army list total after modifications: 2000[/size]
[size=18pt]Surplus points after modifications: 0[/size]

charn 29 Jul 2006 16:08

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
I'll add my input too:

[HQ 1] - Master & Command Squad -
- What Tom suggests is good.

[Elites 1] - Terminator Squad -
- Again, Tom's suggestions are good - the high rate of fire, and highish strength on the tank-hunting Assault Cannons are perfect for downing the low-armoured skimmers commonly used by Tau and Eldar.

[Elites 2] - Dreadnaught - - Looks good. Personally, if you can find the points somewhere, I would go for extra armour on this guy at least. The main advantage of being Venerable is that you are more likely to suffer lots of minor damage (shakes, stuns) rather than major damage. The Extra Armour ensures that when stunned, you can still move and charge into combat.

[Troops 1] - Tactical Squad - Looks good.

[Troops 2] - Tactical Squad - Lascannon provides much needed durable, ranged anti-tank. Personally I'd get rid of the Razorback too, and use his points to buy another landspeeder, or beef up a Marine squad.

[Troops 3] - Scout Squad - Sniper Rifles are excellent for taking down the likes of the Wraithlord, and Missile Launcher can do some damage to vehicles. Looks good.

[Fast Attack 1] - Assault Squad - Tom's suggestions are good.

[Fast Attack 2] - Landspeeder - I disagree with Tom about the heavy flamer. For someone who finds Rhino's unworthy because they are easy-to-destroy fire magnets, it's strange that he suggests putting more points onto an even-easier-to-destroy more expensive fire magnet. That said, landspeeders are still great, but they often only get one chance to work their magic, especially when armed with 'scary' multi-meltas. Keep this guy solely dedicated to tank and 'suit hunting.

[Heavy Support 1] - Predator - Agree with Tom, better armed with heavy bolters. Again however, Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers are actually very useful on Predators. If your tank is rendered stunned by that horribly unlucky Railgun shot, it's good to know that for a meagre 8pts, you can drive it quickly behind cover, or pop it's smoke launchers. Keeps it out of the way of the Railgun until it's ready to drive back out again and fire.

[Heavy Support 2] - Whirlwind - Good stuff.

[Heavy Support 3] - Land Raider - This guy is dodgy against both Tau and Eldar. Railguns and Brightlances will make short work of it, and before you know it, you are 250 points down already. The risk can most certainly pay off however, if your opponent is unlucky, or he decided to load up on Ion Cannons instead of Railguns....


Overall, the list looks OK for use against a static Tau / Eldar army. Mechanised Tau will chew you up however. You have remarkably little anti-tank power in there for dealing with the likes of 3 Hammerheads and 4 Devilfishes. Your assault elements will be rendered useless, while your opponent literally runs rings around you, cutting them to pieces. You will simply be out-maneuvered against an army like that. However, if you don't see any Mech Tau (lucky you ;)), then this one is fine.

Vulcan 29 Jul 2006 20:10

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
Thanks for input guys, you pointed out a lot of things I didn't see.

The recommendations on my commander is a no brainer, and I didn't know why I didn't see that in the first place.

Taking tank hunters would be a great idea with termys with 2 assault cannons.

I'll rework the list to get extra armor on my venerable dread, as Chan pointed out, that would help the advantage of being venerable even more.

I think my first tactical squad is fine how it is, and I'm not going to change it.

I like charn's advice on what to do with my second tactical squad best.* downgrade the Razorback to a rhino, and use the extra points to get another landspeeder.

I like my scout squad as it is.

Yeah I know my assault squad configuration was kinda weird. And I'll probably end up putting 2 flamers in the squad.* Sorry Howl I don't know why you don't like them, and I have had good experiences with just one flamer in an assault squad. 2 will be double the fun!* ;D I also agree with Tom's statement on how assault marines are one of the few unit entries that can best utilise flamers.

I agree with Chan on just leaving my land speeder how it is. I really wouldn't want to put a heavy flamer on it, unless I was just going after troops. Which it is not.

I want to keep my tri-las pred, and smoke launchers and extra armor are a necessity on a vehicle like this. The only problem is: If I end up dropping the LandRadier, then this thing will get wasted.

I love Whirlwinds! A cheep anti-infantry missile battery! (Especially good against Tau and most Eldar units)


* I still don't know wether I should take a Land Raider or not and if I do, what variant will it be?* Although taking a LandRadier would seem like a good idea now, because my Eldar opponent doesn't have any brightlances. His two heavy supports are: Dark Reapers, and a Fire Prism (I told him a Falcon would have been better...)

* I guess it depends on if I take a Landradier or not (?)

Tom Norman 30 Jul 2006 03:14

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan
I'll rework the list to get extra armor on my venerable dread, as Chan pointed out, that would help the advantage of being venerable even more.

I'm confused. Your Dreadnought already has extra armour...you wanna give it extra extra armour? ???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan
I still don't know wether I should take a Land Raider or not and if I do, what variant will it be?

If you don't know already, you will come to learn by experience that Heavy Bolters are Eldar and Tau killers. Hit on a 3+, wound on a 2+, no armour save (generally speaking). That being so, the Land Raider Prometheus is, in my opinion, your Raider of choice. Sporting four sponson mounted twin-linked Heavy Bolters and a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter, these monsters are simply engineered to lay waste to Aspect Warriors and Fire Warriors alike! It can shoot all five weapons on the move (closing the distance to unleash the command squad within). It's genocide on tracks. Furthermore, they can only be taken as transport options for Space Marine command squads (including the Tactical Dreadnought armoured flavour), which is exactly what you want it for. This is meant to be...plus, they look damn cool!

http://static.flickr.com/55/17055864...86ae70.jpg?v=0
My Prometheus - Dauntless (personal transport for Captain McGanner's command squad)

Vulcan 30 Jul 2006 05:37

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
Umm yeah... I thought some one said I didn't have extra armor on my dread... and I just believed them, and didn't check my list, so my bad on that! ;D

Tom..... that is exactly the LandRadier variant I need! I've heard of the name Prometheus before, but I didn't know what it was exactly. I thought it was the variant with the Whirlwind missile launcher on it... which variant is that one...?

Any ways... the Prometheus does seem like the ideal Landradier. The crusader has more cargo space, but that doesn't help unless you have large squads like Black Templars, or if you plan on taking a large termy squad. Which I'm not, I'm teleporting mine in. And the Crusader's Hurricane bolters have only a max range of 24''... and are not as powerful as heavy bolters... but it does have an all powerful assault cannon... I like the idea of 12 higher strength shots with a better range! (twin-linked too)

Is that a forge world model Tom...?:-\ Because it must be... but it seems to be perfect for the situation in which I'd use a LandRadier!

By the way Tom, your Landy looks awesome! :) Extremely well done! I've seen your vindicator before , (also very good) but this is pretty awesome too. Nice Job.

Edit: I just remembered the name for the missile launcher LandRadier: Helios

charn 30 Jul 2006 08:56

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
Go for the Prometheus, just because it is damn cool, and will mow down Firewarrior and Guardian squads whole. Remember that you're losing out on two lascannons however, and you'll also need opponent permission to use it.

The more Tom shows off his Prometheus, the more I want one. :P

Tom Norman 30 Jul 2006 11:30

Re: A balanced List (primary opponets are Eldar and Tau)
 
It's not so much the weapon strength that makes the Prometheus so desirable for deployment against Eldar and Tau, but more so its AP value; 4+ is the predominant save amongst Aspect and Fire Warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan
Is that a forge world model Tom...?:-\ Because it must be... but it seems to be perfect for the situation in which I'd use a LandRadier!

Don't let that put you off. So many people hear the words "Forge World" and instantly quail in fear, gripping their wallets with both hands. But a Land Raider (observe spelling ;)) Prometheus conversion kit is only sixteen quid, or you can pick up the complete kit direct from Forge World for forty. What's a Land Raider cost off the shelf these days? Thirty five pounds? Go on, make that Raider something unique and deeply feared by infantry, it's worth it.

Also, another point of note is that because the Prometheus is a command varient of the Land Raider, it's equipped with Improved comms; dead handy for getting those Termies into play quickly (or even delaying them if you so desire). Shame it's not got a Teleport beacon like the Damocles though, then it'd be absolutely perfect!

Thanks for the comments by the way, it actually looks a hell of a lot better now that I've splattered loads more mud up the sides. I've actually fixed a Storm Bolter to the cupola now too. I'll have to take some more photos some time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charn
The more Tom shows off his Prometheus, the more I want one. :P

Do it! Fourty four quid is what, a day's work? Every veteran gamer should have at least one Forge World model as the Jewel of their army...and a Land Raider varient is ideal! It's big and powerful enough to be the unit on the table your opponent will predominantly worry about. But it's not so expensive that it will cripple you financially.


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