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Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];
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Old 23 Jul 2006, 22:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

Ok, this is my original list;

[size=12pt]Troops[/size]

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Scouts; 93 Points
2 Sniper Rifles,
Heavy Bolter.

[size=12pt]Fast Attack;[/size]

Land Speeder Tornado; 80 Points

Land Speeder Tornado; 80 Points

[size=12pt]Heavy Support[/size]

Predator; 115 Points
Extra Armour.

[size=12pt]HQ[/size]

Captain; 65 Points
Storm Bolter.

[size=12pt]Elites[/size]

Dreadnought; 110 Points
Extra Armour.

Summary;

31 Infantry,
1 Tank,
1 Walker,
2 Skimmers.

5 Heavy Bolters,
4 Lascannons,
4 Plasma Guns,
3 Assault Cannons.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

That 1000 point list did great in it's first game against a Vet. Iron Warrior player. I dug the list out again yesterday as I've registered it for the Medusa Campaign, things didn't go well at all.

My first game was at 1500 points against an army with roughly;

Approx.170 Point Prince; Walking,
Vindicator; Mutated Hull,
Basilisk; Mutated Hull, Indirect.
Havocs [8]; 4 Autocannons, Tank Hunters, MOCU.
2 Oblits;
2 Oblits;
Marine Squad [6]; Las/Plas, MOCU.
Marine Squad [6]; Las/Plas, MOCU.
Possessed Squad [8]; Rhino - X-Armour, Smoke. Talons, Asp Champ. [He uses these because he wanted a cool half mechanical unit using servo parts and figured he needed a close combat punch].

I had an awful game. A lot was due to my Termies [4] failing to beat 3 Possessed in combat when I charged. My Lascannons couldn't hit anything all game and my formation for my Tac squads, which was designed for mutual support and to stop sweeps into the Tac squads behind etc went really wrong [It worked great in my first game]. Due to Squads lasting longer than I wanted to at times and dying too quickly at others. All in all I made a lot of mistakes and didn't roll great but I felt the list could have been better.

Game - 2:

We drop back down to 1000 points so his list has roughly;

Approx.170 Point Prince; Walking,
Vindicator; Mutated Hull,
Basilisk; Mutated Hull, Indirect.
2 Oblits;
2 Oblits;
Marine Squad [6]; Las/Plas, MOCU.
Marine Squad [6]; Las/Plas, MOCU.

We were playing Cleanse. Pretty much the same thing again. I don't think I rolled a 6 with a single Assault Cannon in 2 games. My Tac squads separated this time but the Vindi and Basi were right on target and were killing 3 Marines a shot [and I was at max unit coherency] and I just couldn't scratch them. Another defeat.

Now this was a pretty big shock to the system seeing as before those 2 games I'd only ever lost 6 games before.

I decide to use my Orks against that 1500 Iron Warrior list and they defeat the Marines pretty easily, my Demol and Battle Wagon providing great cover for my sloggers up some narrow gully with my Truck squad getting into combat early and blocking LOS to much of my force.

: - :

Game - 3; So my mate comes round again today and I have another crack at his IW with my 1000 point Marine list. I use the same list as in this thread again. Another defeat, only just missed out on the draw but a defeat none the less........again.

So I decided to change the list a little to this;

[size=12pt]Troops[/size]

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Marines; 115 Points
Lascannon,
Plasma Gun.

6 Scouts; 93 Points
2 Sniper Rifles,
Heavy Bolter.

[size=12pt]Fast Attack[/size]

Land Speeder Tornado; 80 Points

Land Speeder;65 Points
Multi Melta.

[size=12pt]Heavy Support[/size]

Predator; 115 Points
Extra Armour.

Vindicator; 125 Points

[size=12pt]HQ[/size]

Captain; 65 Points
Storm Bolter.

Seeing as my Assault Cannons had not done anything in the 4 games I'd had them in so far I dropped 2 of them. My Dread had also performed terribly, I totally should have listened to the suggestion to drop it. So I add in a Vindicator and drop 1 Tornado down to a regular MM - Speeder to find the points. That Multi Melta would also add some reliable extra anti-tank punch as I was having a horrible time taking out his 2 tanks [Yes, even with 4 Las and 3 Assault Cannons, I just suck at rolling when it comes to killing tanks].

Game - 4;

Things finally go a lot better, my Vindicator taking out it's enemy counterpart early in the game. My Tac squads [back in my old assault countering formation] worked well at stopping the Prince. My Pred and Tornado whittled down his Marines and my Las Cannons took down most of the Oblits. Not a huge win but a Solid Victory.

Game - 5;

Same lists line up again. Everything comes off this time, in turn 1 my Speeder takes down the Vindicator, a Las takes down the Basilisk. 2 Oblits fall to more Las Cannon fire. The game was pretty much decided in that first turn. A crushing victory.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

So, what do you think on the new list compared to my original?.

Even though it performed much better Iím not sure if it's more balanced [would do better against a wide range of armies than the original]. Plus, in defence of my first days play I did get totally drunk the night before and was feeling a little rough, my mind wasn't totally in the game :P [no excuse for the loss the next day though :].

Which list would you go for?
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Old 24 Jul 2006, 01:20   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

a fire power list with no whirlwinds?
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Old 24 Jul 2006, 06:38   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

i like your second list probably because i have a passion for vindicators and multimeltas. the second list is not as felexable as the first but dont lose any hair over it your second is still by far the better list. one thing i would do though is replace 2 las cannons for 2 missle launchers this still gives you tank killing power and the enemy just squirms when you drop a few pie plates on them
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Old 24 Jul 2006, 19:20   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

'a fire power list with no whirlwinds'

I figure 4 Heavy Bolters, an Assault Cannon and Autocannon is enough to deal with GEQ's.

Although that is one concern with the revised list, it may lose some [too much?] effectiveness against horde armies. I am losing;

1 Heavy Bolter,
2 Assault Cannons,
1 Storm Bolter.
[13 shots at 24"]

For

Demolisher Cannon,
Multi Melta.

'one thing i would do though is replace 2 las cannons for 2 missle launchers this still gives you tank killing power and the enemy just squirms when you drop a few pie plates on them'

I doubt much is going to be too bothered by 2 Frag Blasts a turn. The drop in AP would be too much, Nid MC's, Oblits, Daemon Princes would have a much easier time against me then.
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Old 25 Jul 2006, 02:16   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

in this army how would you beat tau ??? are you going to shoot them up? no you are going to be out gunned. marines arn't made to be a shooty army.
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Old 25 Jul 2006, 02:58   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

Quote:
marines arn't made to be a shooty army.
I'm afraid you are mistaken my friend. I think that Marines make a very good shooty army.

As for your list, I think that two Whirlwinds might be more effective than a Vindicator. The WWs will also help you against those horde armies. I know that the Vindi owns MEQ troops, but for the other races its overkill, and the WWs will wreck some serious shop.

IF
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Old 25 Jul 2006, 15:40   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

marines are always outnumbered, they can take alot but are better in CC because they take alot less hits from powerful weapons also back to being outnumbered this isn't good for a shooty army because they have alot less shots, yes they have heavy bolters and stuff like that but one it comes to adding up the points it isn't worth it. marines have whirlwinds and tanks to Aulma off the other guy and take out what a marine can't. marines are better as a mix army, little are only there to shoot and most are there shoot then charge.*
if you want an army that moves, stand and shoot then tau is for you but if you want to use marines in this way its a waste of there ture power.
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Old 30 Jul 2006, 23:28   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

The thread about my original list got into the exact same thing........

Marines are one of the best forces in the game for raw fire-power. As good if not better than Tau, especially seeing as Tau tend to focus on mobile fire-power.

'As for your list, I think that two Whirlwinds might be more effective than a Vindicator. The WWs will also help you against those horde armies. I know that the Vindi owns MEQ troops, but for the other races its overkill, and the WWs will wreck some serious shop.'

I am somewhat tempted to go for a Whirlwind, my main problem though is that my main opponents consist of;

Iron Warriors [2+ Save & Mutated Hull Tank heavy],
Iron Warriors [Dreadnought Heavy],
Salamanders,
Death Guard.

Although there is a gaming club I go to that has a fair few Nid, Ork, Guard players. I don't have the time or money to get there as much anymore [and I can't stand playing in GW stores].

Plus when I do actually play at a GW or tourney the majority of armies tend to be MEQ. Even some of the GEQ armies at their most effective are seriously packing in high toughness, high save models. Godzilla lists for Nids, Grey Knight/SoB allies with Guard.

So is it really worth it with that in mind?. I reckon it's a good bet to take one when my list goes up to 1500.
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Old 31 Jul 2006, 00:00   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

Heya,

Well, for one thing, I would drop the Dreadnought & the Scouts. Instead, I would insert two Elite Veteran squads. Each with a tank hunting lascannon (6 man team) for 123 points each. Maybe figure things around the list a bit to make things fit. But the Str10 lascannons will help poor rolls still make destruction happen. That allows your other lascannons to follow priority as normal. While the Tornados are wonderful, they're also facing down upwards of 6 autocannons. Unless your opponent just ignores them, they're doomed from the start. Overall, with 6 lascannons, you should be able to munch his Obliterators and Vindicator first turn. Your predator should be able to take care of a transport on it's own (rhino). You'll have to spread out and suffer the Bassy, but a deep striking Multi-melta Speeder should be able to knock out a Bassy on turn two if you're a bit lucky.

Really, as bad as it may sound, I would drop all armor from your list. I would just take marines, with lascannons. Use veteran skills & traits to get the marines to work as you need, and just toast the hard stuff off the board. Then when you don't need lascannons, start walking.

I say that as an IW player. People think you can't claim objectives, but if all it takes is a turn or two to totally cripple an opponent due to sheer volume of critical firepower, you then still have 4 turns of walking to do what you need. That's more than enough for the majority of missions. Only one mission will be near impossible (capturing deployment zones).

Against horde armies, the Speeders will play a better role, but currently, they're taking up points that marines would fill better probably in terms of firepower. I would separate into two different lists. One for MEQ and one for GEQ. At 1,000 points, especially when facing people who take tooled Lords, Oblits and duo-ordance tanks in 1k, it's not a poor choice.

Cheers!
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Old 31 Jul 2006, 00:25   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fire-Power Force - Changes[?] - [1000 Points];

Yeah....my infantry normally are my best performers although my Pred has served me brilliantly.

It would be much more effective to drop the armour for those Vet squads, I fear it would be a little boring to use though?. I'm used to darting about with my Eldar etc I like the image of a Pred hurtling forward all guns blazing..

We kind of have an unwritten 'None gearing' rule. I.E we make take on all comers lists, my list change was more an in general thing. Not just to beat this one army. So, would the list with the Vets be effective enough over all for the times that I do get to play GEQ's? [The guy with this IW list has just started buying a Nid army that will have 60+ Spine Guants....]

The Dread certainly needs to go though, it was you who suggested that in my first incarnation of this list Mal.......I totally should have listened :-\. I'm quite fond of the Scouts though, the Death Guard army has loads of Infiltrating units and they would do well at pushing those units back. They aren't un dropable though.
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