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To anyone posting a Marine list...
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Old 04 Nov 2004, 20:19   #1 (permalink)
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Default To anyone posting a Marine list...

Alright, understandably everyone wants to make a better list. Understandably one of the best ways to do that is to post it and ask for comments. There is however, some problems with this, specially in an army that has so many codex like the marines do.

One of the big things that effects what people are going to say is how you play. This is pretty individual to each person and each person has a way that they think things should work. This means choices that one person thinks is bad while another thinks it is good. It all depends on how you field your army. For example, someone who likes to charge up an engage close in might favor melta weapons. The low points cost, high power and armour punch makes it ideal. The person who likes to sit back and pound the enemy to pieces though will find that the melta weaponry have too short a range and shun it in favour of other things like the lascannon.

A unit that works well for one might be shunned by another for the same reason. A person might take a pred because the cost is cheaper than a dev squad, but the other might prefer the dev because they just can't seem to luck out on the hit charts. It's not uncommon and it really isn't a choice you can come to by law of averages.

Some might find that certain combinations work well for them that others don't. The composition of squads may differ depending on play style. For example I always take veteran Sergeants and always outfit them with power weapons or fists. It's an extra 30/40 points a squad but the number of times that has turned the battle for me has made it worth it. I make it up a bit because my tactical squads don't typically carry heavy weapons though. the tactical squads I feel should be able to move to better positions without having a weapon that might make it just as tempting to stand on a bad position to be able to fire it. This is especially true as it seems there is alot more emphesis on holding objectives and table quarters under the new rules.

Some might find that certain combinations work well for them that others don't. I often also have a Deardnaught or my command squad moving in tandem with a tactical squad. Since both can have improved stats in close combat and better weapons they tend to be able to help the tactical squads with units that would otherwise be to tough for them or (as often happens) to numerous to deal with quickly. Many don't do that and have each squad act independantly of the rest.

So far that's been assuming we're just dealing with the basic list. Now add to the fact that there are at least seven or more possible alternate rules out there for specific chapters with Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templar being the major four out there. There are alot of possibilities and even then, you have variations on the theme. I knew a guy who fielded a SW army that was mostly tanks. Not exactly what you expect from your average Space Wolf is it? He did however win every game he played with it and switched to a diffrent list out of boredom.

Long and short of all this is that while we all can help, there is only so much we can do. Alot of it is going to depend on you and how you want things to work. While we can make initial suggestions and even discuss the effectivness of specific units and combos it's up to you to find out what works for you. Get out there, play, have fun. Don't worry about making the killer list of all time. If you lose, figure out where you went wrong and tweak your list or tactics accordingly. While we all can help nothing in the end beats experience.
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Old 03 Dec 2005, 06:49   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: To anyone posting a Marine list...

This was part two and a bit more of my advice concerning lists.* Maybe not sticky worthy but I thought it might help our newbies out a* bit more with list building.

When I posted the first topic on this it was intended as a word of caution as a result of how diffrent people play their army.* Since each person is unique you can often wind up with diffrent lists that work effectively in different ways.* That was written back during third edition, but it applies just as much if not more now in fourth as it did then.* Now however I'm wanting to look a bit more at selecting a list rather than posting one.

You have a lot of choices when it comes to making a list.* I'm not just talking units either.* Wargear, choices and options in a given unit and the traits system means that more than ever you got alot to consider when it comes to making up your list.* the upcoming Chapter specific codex for Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are likely to follow form and might even have rules for setting up varying child chapters of these big four.* When you consider it all and all the possible combinations the task can almost seem daunting.* Like everything though, if you break it down into steps your going to be able to handle it.* You probably already y do some of this without even thinking about it.*

The first thing you probably want to do is figure out what you want your army to do overall.* Would you rather race right in and take the foe hand to hand, or would you rather pick your enemies off from afar?* Does the idea of tonnes of armour rumbling across the field make you giddy or do you prefer to put your trust in your war-hardend men?* Do you want to do one thing really well or a jack of all trades, ready to exploit weaknesses to win? Are you going to use traits, or go straight vanilla?*

That last one is important to consider.* What traits and drawbacks you decide to go with with effect the choices you have open to you when it comes to choosing what you want in your army.* Your going to have a hard time of it if you decide to take something like Flesh over Steel and then decide you want a tank heavy army!* Once you have a general idea of what you want your army to be like you can get around to choosing the individual units.

So, now you need to choose the right men and machines to carry out your plans. Of course you have to take the minimum Two troops and an HQ and in that there is still a fair number of choices.* The standard marine list offers a total of three HQ choices, each of which have two versions and access to the entire Marine armoury. There are also two troop choices, each of which has several options as to Heavy and assault weapons as well as upgrades tot he Sgt, which in turn gives him access to wargear.* So how do you choose?*

Well, if you answered the previous questions you have some idea of how you want them to work....eventually.* At this point things are pretty limited but you should have some idea of what you want them to do.* There is one thing you should keep in mind, How does this unit fit with the rest of my army?*

This probably is the most important question in my opinion because it is not any one unit that wins the game, but how well it works with the rest in following your strategy.* Devastators are no good unless there are tactical squads or scouts to take objectives.* Terminators are easily overwhelmed with numbers unless other units help to thin the ranks, or keep enemy squads busy.* By making sure your choices compliment each other you help to patch up any weaknesses that particular units might have.* *

That said, don't expect the same tactics to work all the time either.* One big weakness about marines, despite the impressive stat line, there is always someone out there that's better.* Rushing guard might win you the game but pulling the same tactics with a Tyranid player will just wind you up in a world of hurt.* This doesn't mean an army built for a specific task is weaker than an all-round army, it just means you have to know how to adjust.* Using the above example if you have an assault oriented army.* Instead of rushing them you might hold back and let what little heavy weapons you have thin the ranks a bit.* Then once they get closer move to counter attack one unit. This way you are focusing your army on a small part of his.*

Another thing to keep in mind is that depending on the size of game your playing.* What works well in 1,000 points might not work at 2,000 and vice versa.* Landraiders are impressive and can be an effective tank and transport, but in a smaller game they take up alot of points!* By the same idea having masses of tactical squads instead of more specialized units can be a bit of hindrance in a larger game as they are not as effective at taking out specific types of targets.* Taking a turn to shoot out the Russ with a rocket launcher means there are alot of bolters that weren't hitting those incoming conscripts.*

Don't worry if you change your lists over time. As you learn and try things out you might find the ideas you started out with don't fit with how you find yourself playing.* You might also find that something work in diffrent ways than how you expected or find a you prefer a different type of tactic.* I have in the course of playing Marines gone from shooty to assault oriented and back again.

So there you have it, some basic guidelines to how to construct a list.* Keep in mind what you want to do.* Make sure your units work well with each other. Don't be scared to change your tactics to suit your enemy.* Make sure you consider the size of the game when weighing up the units.* It may not seem like much but it it should help no matter what type of list your making.
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