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So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...
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Old 31 May 2010, 21:27   #11 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restayvien
Yeah I noticed the first media reports basically portrayed it as Israeli Commandos attacking aid workers or some such nonsense. I thought it odd - they're just lucky that they video'd it.
Also, please, note what are the soldiers wielding there - paintball guns. Their firearms were strapped on their backs and they were given orders not to use them unless assaulted. The firearms of some of them were torn away from their backs, one soldier was shot and is in critical condition. Only after that and the hard beating by metal rods and being thrown overboard did the soldiers open fire.

What the hell were they supposed to do? Let themselves be massacred? :
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Old 31 May 2010, 21:31   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Why were soldiers wielding paintball guns? Is that standard kit for IDF?
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Old 31 May 2010, 21:37   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Why were soldiers wielding paintball guns? Is that standard kit for IDF?
It is called non-lethal weapon. The ammo contains some unpleasant substances, such as pepper.

Many police units all around the world use these against riots, instead of rubber (or live) bullets. Since IDF has to deal with riots quite often, I suppose that yeah, it is a standard kit for the IDF if they do not want to kill people.

EDIT: one more link, San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 : http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14...e?OpenDocument

Please, note articles 67 and 146:

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

SECTION VI : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND GOODS

146. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67 or if it is determined as a result of visit and search or by other means, that they:

(a) are carrying contraband;
(b) are on a voyage especially undertaken with a view to the transport of individual passengers who are embodied in the armed forces of the enemy;
(c) are operating directly under enemy control, orders, charter, employment or direction;
(d) present irregular or fraudulent documents, lack necessary documents, or destroy, deface or conceal documents;
(e) are violating regulations established by a belligerent within the immediate area of naval operations; or
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade.

Capture of a neutral merchant vessel is exercised by taking such vessel as prize for adjudication.
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Old 31 May 2010, 21:45   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

No, the zionist IDF shouldn't have even been there in the 1st place!

That's what makes this so shit on Israels part. If they are going to flaunt international law, and be inhumane towards their fellow man (considering what the the Jewish race went through in WW2) then they should be as heavily sanctioned against as the evil dictatorships of Kim jong-ill and Saddam Hussein, the UK and US went into Afghanistan for crimes against humanity and oppression.

Israel keeps brushing the line with its conduct (ironic eh Khanaris?) towards the Palestinians then perhaps the world police card needs to be legitimately played by the UNSC.

Really for a '1st' world nation, and considering Israels past the jewish peoples who live their should learn to turn the other cheek. This needless violence, and cycle needs to stop and the only way it can stop is with Israel starting to take some real responsibility in the world instead of hiding behind America and its 'long suffering past'. Todays zionists are not those that survived the holocaust, they need to learn to be better people if they want to live in the lands that they claim.

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Old 31 May 2010, 21:51   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Why were soldiers wielding paintball guns? Is that standard kit for IDF?
It is called non-lethal weapon. The ammo contains some unpleasant substances, such as pepper.
I didn't consider that lol.


Still, wouldn't tazers or bean bag shotguns work better?
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Old 31 May 2010, 22:00   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Rafe, I am not a military tactician of the IDF, but I suppose they know what they are equipping their men with, especially when boarding a ship that has flown a white flag to show it is surrendering.

Genmotty, Israel has no other option than to defend itself. If it stops defending itself, it gets destroyed. As long as rockets fly from the Arab territories, Israel has to do something to prevent its people being killed. Ships carrying contraband are not helping the situation. This was a clear provocation from the Arabs.

As far as international law is concerned, misusing the white flag to draw your opponent into a trap and engage him with lethal force under the very same flag is OK? :sadnshocked:
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Old 31 May 2010, 22:23   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

The fact that they engaged a civilian ship in international waters is against international law.

The fact that they didn't 'shoot across the bows' to ward of the ship and instead decided to forcefully board amounts to piracy.

That is what I decry when I talk about Israel having flaunted international law. Don't try to defend the IDF actions they are clearly and unequivocally in the wrong.

[hr]

As far as I am aware from the news articles I have heard no word that the ship 'surrendered' and it shouldn't have anyhow, if it was in international waters, and had yet to come under fire it has no reason to. If it was in Israeli waters and had been fired upon itself, then the ship should fly the flag for surrender. But Israel or any other nation doesn't have any form of military jurisdiction outside its own waters.

If you have futher information please post.

Likewise if you have a source that clearly states the ship was carring 'weapons' supplies, 'contraband' and Cement and Water Purification tablets are certiantly not aid that is contraband.

[hr]

Defending yourself is not grinding somebodies face into the mud. You wouldn't do it in a fight unless you were mean and vindictive, even if that person might be pinching you constantly. It is the use of disproportionate force and inhumane methods that drives my disgust of Israeli Zionism.

It is a disgust fuelled by their actions, not prejudice in exactly the same way I am disgusted by American foreign policy based on their actions, or the Chinese in Tibet, or Terrorists actting as criminals.

This issue has nothing to do with the rocket attacks of the past. EVERYTHING should be judged as it is TODAY, the blame game can be played continuously into the past and that is EXACTLY the fuel on the fire that keeps this conflict going. It is a shame that my earlier post was deleted rather than suitably edited if members thought it was inappropriate, as I explained that the only way to deal with the situation is to consider the slate as if it clean, and than judge each sides actions as they happen.

Vengeance never is a justification for an action.

And yes, Israel should just let its people get killed, or rather not grind the people of Palestine into the dust for the acts of criminals. Target the criminals, not the people!

Gen
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Old 31 May 2010, 22:31   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
And yes, Israel should just let its people get killed
That's not an option.

Also, concrete/cement is actually contraband unless its for a specific project, because the terrorists like to use it to build bunkers and stuff.
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Old 31 May 2010, 22:35   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
And yes, Israel should just let its people get killed, or rather not grind the people of Palestine into the dust for the acts of criminals. Target the criminals, not the people!

Gen
Sorry, mate, I see no point in discussing the matter with you anymore after this being said. Your opinion is that a sovereign state should let its people get killed. I have no answer to this. At least not one that could get through the Mods here.
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Old 31 May 2010, 23:10   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: So... Israel is attacking aid ships now...

Read the full sentence LGT and Watchdog. You've missed the point by only half reading the paragraph. It is also a summery of the entire post, so It might be worth rereading everything again. Lack of communication is what starts many a conflict.

[hr]

LGT, a bunker has no use if the IDF don't move into Palestinian territory with armed forces on a regular basis does it?

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