[Col.Angus]

Its a known fact that normal prisons can make better criminals, not better citizens out of its prisoners.

Is Guantanamo any better? Are the human rights violations and treatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay making us all safer, or breeding hatred and spite in its people there making them into enemies when they are released?

Is Guantanamo creating Terrorists?

[JBunny]

Its also a fact that prisons can make better citizens.

Guantanamo is not making more terrorist. They were either terrorist or enemy combatants before they were sent there.

[Nox]

Originally Posted by Col.Angus

Its a known fact that normal prisons can make better criminals, not better citizens out of its prisoners.

Is Guantanamo any better? Are the human rights violations and treatment of detainees in Guantanamo Bay making us all safer, or breeding hatred and spite in its people there making them into enemies when they are released?

Is Guantanamo creating Terrorists?

This is a loaded start to a thread, things like "are the human rights violations.." are inflammatory and bias the content of the conversation that follows.

Now having said that "Is Guantanamo creating terrorists?" Short answer: No. Why, simple because these guys were already terrorists to begin with. Also the fact that many of the people released have been tracked right back to terrorist cells kinda tells you something about what they will do when released. There was just a story about one of the released prisoners blowing himself up in a suicide attack and several others have been re-captured on the battlefields of the middle east.

[Col.Angus]

Originally Posted by Nox

This is a very loaded start to a thread, things like "are the human rights violations.." are inflammatory and bias the content of the conversation that follows.

from CNN. com:
Human rights groups have long called for the facility to be closed, alleging that detainees endure numerous human rights violations amounting to torture.

CIA chief Michael Hayden admitted this year that the agency had used waterboarding, a controversial technique that simulates drowning, on three Guantanamo detainees.

So by their own admission they have used questionable techniques if not outright torture. So Im not going to debate that, because its from their own mouths.

To say every single person in Guantanao is a terrorist already is totally rediculous. To date only little more then a dozen or so people have been brought up on charges that can be taken to trial, out of the countless people held there for questioning indefinatly. Even more rediculous would be for me to suggest that every person released would become one (which Im not trying to suggest). What Im debating is if the use of extreme tactics in dealing with suspected terrorists poses the risk of becoming ultimatly self-defeating.

[Lunaris]

One thing responsible of creating terrorist is an ideology that has no respect to human live.

[Nox]

Two points on the human rights thing:
1- Those human rights groups also categorize things like making them listen to music they don't like and not letting them sleep a full night as torture. Also, their still only "alleging" this anyway. Much of the objections from many of them have been motivated by the fact that they object to the war and so they are far from unbiased.

2- They waterboarded 3 prisoners out of about 700 and I'm willing to bet that those guys were very high up in their respective terrorist organizations.

On the prisoners being terrorists:
No every person there is not a terrorist only about half is my bet. Most of the others got scooped up for aiding terrorist by doing things like hiding weapons and money for them. That's why the US has already released about 450 of them. Most of the ones left are guilty of murder and other sorts of violence.


-- PS: And no I don't particularly like waterboarding but I really don't have too much of an objection when it's used on guys that post videos of themselves sawing another humanbeings head off while screaming scripture.

[Lunaris]

I think you are a terrorist enough if you support terrorism.

[JBunny]

Another thing Col. Your first post states that prisons can make better criminals. Are you saying that innocent people placed in prison become criminals, or that a criminal placed in prison gets "better" at their trade?

Those two options differ greatly from each other in regard to your question. One comments on rehabilitation and the other creates something that was not there before.

If you are referring to the first one then please show us the proof of that fact. Surely there is some statistical data that tracks innocent people and the crimes they comment after being released.

[Col.Angus]

Originally Posted by Lunaris

I think you are a terrorist enough if you support terrorism.

Im having trouble understanding your posts, cause youre being a little vauge. Could you alaborate?


Are you suggesting that to apply human rights to people that have not been convicted of a crime is supporting terrorisum? 15 out of hundreds of people in there have been proven guilty of anything. And theyre from all over the world. Even if you excuse their mistreatment as a nesisary evil, you have to admit were being judged by how we treat our enemies, and our handling of rights and justice in times of stress especially since our standards are so high.

If I was taken prisoner, given no legal representation, not allowed to contact my family, not being told of what charges and evidence has been brought against me, mistreated if not tortured outright, and held for months or years under such conditions, Id be pretty inclined to take revenge on the country that did that to me, even if I hadnt been on an agenda of rage before hand.

[hr]

Originally Posted by JBunny

Another thing Col. Your first post states that prisons can make better criminals. Are you saying that innocent people placed in prison become criminals, or that a criminal placed in prison gets "better" at their trade?

Those two options differ greatly from each other in regard to your question. One comments on rehabilitation and the other creates something that was not there before.

If you are referring to the first one then please show us the proof of that fact. Surely there is some statistical data that tracks innocent people and the crimes they comment after being released.

No actually Im not saying that innocent people in jail become criminals. What Im saying is that criminals become better criminals.

If out of the hundreds of people there many are merely suspects or people who likely know someone who knows someone who is linked to terrorisum. But will our treatment make them pursue stronger relations if not join terror groups outright after the fact is what Im after here.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/20/gat...amo/index.html

this is the same CNN article as sited before. It talks about some of the people being released from Guantanamo are going out and killing people.

If they were that dangerous before we sent them to Guantanamo, howd we release them? What Im suggesting is happening is that how we treat them in Guantanamo makes a small fish want to be a big fish in some cases. So is are the methods we use to detain and interrogate them to gain information about terrorists making more problems then it helps stop?

[Nox]

I see what you are getting at Angus but we don’t live in a perfect world and that makes it pretty hard to be sure what the best course often is. You have to admit that those people that were captured under arms killing soldiers and civilians should not be treated the same way as someone fighting under oath for their country. Additionally, they are not normal civilian criminals (motivated by normal criminal impulses); many are fanatics that will not think twice about killing anyone that gets in their way even if it means their own death. So rehabilitation really isn’t an option. Finally, because of the nature of terrorism, a civilian trial will in many cases cause security leaks about ongoing operations that could directly result in the deaths of soldiers. So what do you do? You can’t just leave them out there killing people.

More food for thought: How do you convince a fanatic to give you information that could save hundreds of lives if he is willing to die before he talks?