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Is a second American Revolution feasible?
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Old 20 Nov 2005, 22:13   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Is a second American Revolution feasible?

The question is entirely hypothetical, but bear with it. Imagine that somehow, the current US government gets overthrown and a modified political system is set up.

If there were something you would wish to change in our government, what would you change?

Among the things I would like to see:
-Legalize "Crimes of Consent." By legalizing prostitution, one can establish brothels where the conditions for sex are much healthier. By legalizing marijuana, cocaine, etc, less money is spent fighting drugs or releasing murderers/rapists to make room for drug addicts, and it can legally be counted as part of our GDP. One may call it immoral, but the same arguments can be made for tobacco and alcohol. Anything that affects only you is legal, this includes abortion, suicide, etc.
-Repeal the 1934 National Firearms Act and all subsequent provisions: the right to bear arms is inalienable, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the civil liberties of another. Nuclear weapons are another story.
-Remodel selective service so that only those that serve 4 years in service to the government, be it the military, Peace Corp, etc. are allowed to participate in political government.
-Eliminate the Electoral College. The reason it was founded in the first place was to give the smaller states disproportinate political power.
-Reprioritize NASA. Face it, probes to Mars or Titan do not help the average citzen...assuming we can design an effective railgun however, mining the moon can be an effective

Stuff I am still interested in working out:
-Education: On one hand, one could take the European model and centralize education so that all schools would have to conform to a national standard, then there's the opposite extreme where schools attempt to outcompete each other in a free market.
-The military-industrial complex: Just how do we plan to reduce our bloated defense budget?
-Environmental issues: Just how do we reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, as solar energy is not the future Jimmy Carter said it would be, hydroelectricity is environmentally damaging, wind power doesn't provide enough for its costs?
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Old 20 Nov 2005, 22:24   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

I think durgs shuold be legal, but sold at a high price so only the Rich people can buy them ;D
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Old 20 Nov 2005, 22:46   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

I placed this under the "serious discussion" for a reason. Personally, to legalize it but artificially raise the price goes against the reasons to legalize it in the first place. Considering a majority of drug users come from the underclasses, saying "These drugs are legal, but the official channels will charge you an arm and leg," just doesn't work.

That being said, forcing an addiction on someone (e.g. kidnapping and doping a person) would still be illegal in that the drug use was not out of the person's consent. Likewise with the gun argument; you can use a gun in any way you want so long as it doesn't infringe on another person's civil liberties (self defense is another story; that being said, the legal system would have to be reformed so that a person that shot another in self-defense would not have his life savings wrested away from him by the offender's relatives; as a matter of fact there needs to be some serious reforms in the legal system to prevent such idiotic cases from entering the system, period).
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 01:45   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

Well Tau online has just been viewed by the FBI :-*. Well probably, and if you suddenly disapear I'll assume your in one of those 'use to be' secret prisons.

Quote:
-Legalize "Crimes of Consent." By legalizing prostitution, one can establish brothels where the conditions for sex are much healthier. By legalizing marijuana, cocaine, etc, less money is spent fighting drugs or releasing murderers/rapists to make room for drug addicts, and it can legally be counted as part of our GDP. One may call it immoral, but the same arguments can be made for tobacco and alcohol. Anything that affects only you is legal, this includes abortion, suicide, etc.
I agree with your views but I wouldn't make all drugs that are illegal now legal. Marijuana yes, I've done research on this and it is no worse for than alcohol or cigerettes. I would even argue it is healthier.

I would not agree with making things like cocain, ecstacy, crack, meth, and herion legal. I would agree with removing prison time as a penalty. Instead make go to a class that teaches them about such things and if they want rehab it is optional but otherwise they go about their business.

Quote:
-Repeal the 1934 National Firearms Act and all subsequent provisions: the right to bear arms is inalienable, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the civil liberties of another. Nuclear weapons are another story.
Very true. Jefferson didn't actually list the right to bear arms as an inalienable right, but it was the second amendment for a reason. Next to Freedom of speach it is the most important thing to the founders.

Quote:
-Remodel selective service so that only those that serve 4 years in service to the government, be it the military, Peace Corp, etc. are allowed to participate in political government.
I don't so much like that one. Not because I'm not in the military but because we need representation from people with different views. How about a politician has to haved served to vote on wether or not we go to war. That way we don't have stupid wars that just end up with lots of dead americans because a few people who have never seen combat thought it was a good idea.

Quote:
-Eliminate the Electoral College. The reason it was founded in the first place was to give the smaller states disproportinate political power.
I agree with getting rid of it, but it doesn't do that. How many people you have in the Electorial college is based on population :. The problem with it is that if 'any' state has 60% of one party it counts as getting the whole state, and the 40% of any other parties is ignored. This would apply to California or Rhode Island . The senate is the group that gives disproportionate political power to smaller states.

Quote:
-Reprioritize NASA. Face it, probes to Mars or Titan do not help the average citzen...assuming we can design an effective railgun however, mining the moon can be an effective
See the computer in front of you. Ok without NASA that computer would be a lot less advanced. You might be playing the original pong instead of talking on the internet. Earth also doesn't have the resources to support the 6.5 billion of us there are. We are only getting by now because we are using the resources faster than they replenish. When we run out we will notice rather quickly how the resources don't support the 6.5 billion of us there are. Also by 2050 there is projected to be 9-11 billion people. We don't have alot of options to fix this problem. NASA and moving to space or mining the moon probably aren't the answers, but when you have very few options its good to keep as many as you can. Moving to space is a bad idea, but we might find something out about the universe that helps us.

Quote:
-Environmental issues: Just how do we reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, as solar energy is not the future Jimmy Carter said it would be, hydroelectricity is environmentally damaging, wind power doesn't provide enough for its costs?
Remember I said NASA. Who knows, they do have a tendancy to invent crazy stuff. We have nuclear, but like fossil fuels there is a limit to how much material we have to work with. Realistically you can not create energy. So anything we use besides Solar, Thermal, and Wind is going to be a resource that will eventually run out. Since we have a sun we have an infinite(at least compared to our life times) supply of solar energy, since we have weather we have endless wind, and this rock has a hot core so plenty of that.

Quote:
-The military-industrial complex: Just how do we plan to reduce our bloated defense budget?
Make things more efficeint. Each branch of the military has its own crap, and its own versions of the same crap. Air force has missile silos. Navy has submarines with missile silos inside. The sub version is better, its nearly impossible to track, target, or even find. It can go anywhere, why do we need the ground based ones that once found by the enemy are always known? There is also the Air Force, well the marines have their own planes, the navy has a ton of planes, and the army has some planes. Why do have an Air Force if everyone has planes? Why do we have marines when the Army is nearly the same thing and does the same things? Why do we have pilots and tank drivers? We already have drones that are unmanned, and the technology has been there for awhile. Most of our planes are already fly by wire which means they are already controlled by remote but the controller is on board. Taking it the next step where the remote driver is on the ground or a ship would be rather easy and not very expensive plus would save a ton of money in the long run since we wouldn't have to train pilots to endure the conditions a fighter goes through. Plus fighter planes can do a lot of manuevers that the human body can't handle so remote controlled units would dominate the skies beyound what we do now. Effeicientcy tends to work out for the better, and makes things cheaper.

Also if you manage to have a second revolution that would be great, but make sure to finish getting rid of corruption. Our founders did a good job, but they couldn't predict corporations and lobbiests.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 02:00   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

I would have anyone who supplies heroin strung up by their ankles.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 02:48   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kangaroo Joe
I would have anyone who supplies heroin strung up by their ankles.
Personally, I believe these drugs cause more harm than good. However, if done in rational doses, cocaine actually can be consumed without addiction. Fun fact: Freud was able to take a daily dose of 30 mg of cocaine for a year, and not become addicted in the process. Rather than saying "It's illegal, period," educating people on how to be responsible in drug use would be a better idea. The same argument holds for sex-education; those taught a fully comprehensive program, as opposed to "abstinence until marriage" tend to be safer overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironwinds
I don't so much like that one. Not because I'm not in the military but because we need representation from people with different views. How about a politician has to haved served to vote on wether or not we go to war. That way we don't have stupid wars that just end up with lots of dead americans because a few people who have never seen combat thought it was a good idea.
Sorry, but that's what I said. You have to have served to vote and in theory, how many bloodthirsty members of the Peace Corp are there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironwinds
I agree with getting rid of it, but it doesn't do that. How many people you have in the Electorial college is based on population Roll Eyes. The problem with it is that if 'any' state has 60% of one party it counts as getting the whole state, and the 40% of any other parties is ignored. This would apply to California or Rhode Island Wink. The senate is the group that gives disproportionate political power to smaller states.
Historically, the electoral college was founded as a "one-point-per-state" system, as the founding fathers had feared the concept of "mob rule" associated with increasing urbanization, and because they needed a relatively efficient way of deciding a leader as communications at the time were quite primitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironwinds
See the computer in front of you. Ok without NASA that computer would be a lot less advanced. You might be playing the original pong instead of talking on the internet. Earth also doesn't have the resources to support the 6.5 billion of us there are. We are only getting by now because we are using the resources faster than they replenish. When we run out we will notice rather quickly how the resources don't support the 6.5 billion of us there are. Also by 2050 there is projected to be 9-11 billion people. We don't have alot of options to fix this problem. NASA and moving to space or mining the moon probably aren't the answers, but when you have very few options its good to keep as many as you can. Moving to space is a bad idea, but we might find something out about the universe that helps us.
That's a little extreme yourself. The first electronic computer ENIAC was designed to calculate artillery coordinates. Subsequent variants were used for chess, and other mathematical operators (including such fun games like Monte Carlo; nothing beats throwing darts to find the exact value of pi!). The main object that got computers off the ball was UNIX, developed in the 60s by AT&T Bell Laboratories, (they invented quite a lot of stuff; remember the Jetpack from Thunderball?). The need to advance computer security became especially important after the Cap'n Cruch incident, and the Internet was derived from ARPANET, a Department of Defense project designed to develop a system for coordinating nationwide traffic, military movement, etc in the case of nuclear attack.

This being said, now comes the question of how to bring about such changes. There's forming a political third party, which has little chance of success, and there's armed revolution, which has an unknown certainty (maybe better than being elected, maybe worse) at the cost of material and human lives. Such a difficult decision.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 04:06   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

Nope, it's not possible.

One could start, oh sure, but the government would put it down faster than you could blink. The growing gap between what is legal for civlians to own in self defense, and what the government actually has in use and working behind closed doors is astronomical. To even be pretentious enough to think that armed civilians could overthrow the government is so far displaced from reality I would just have to laugh at it. Side note - that's why the whole "We need our assault weapons for self defense against the government" argument is so laughable.

So as a result, I refuse to humor your hypothetical situation, that couldn't ever possibly happen. :P Outside of aliens landing and handing out ray guns and forcefields to everyone on your block.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 06:00   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironwinds
I agree with your views but I wouldn't make all drugs that are illegal now legal.* Marijuana yes, I've done research on this and it is no worse for than alcohol or cigarettes.* I would even argue it is healthier.*

I would not agree with making things like cocaine, ecstacy, crack, meth, and herion legal.* I would agree with removing prison time as a penalty.* Instead make go to a class that teaches them about such things and if they want rehab it is optional but otherwise they go about their business.*
Marijuana is much worse, at the moment, than cigarettes for you. The smoke you inhale can be ridiculously worse for you.. can't remember the exact multiple but it's at least 2X worse for you, on a joint-cigarette basis.

We already abuse alcohol and cigarettes legally... it's just that it's much easier to abuse the illegal substances because they tend to be more addictive. When people get addicted to cigarettes all the time, I really don't see people using crack responsibly in most cases, hence it's illegality. If you really don't care about messing up our healthcare system even more than it already is, then sure, drugs for everyone! I'd say that more education about these "dangerous" substances couldn't hurt, either way, however.

As to overthrowing the government, you don't neccessarily need guns to do that... just the media and some discipline. Think Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Using non-violence, Ghandi kicked the brits out of India and established a new government. Ghandi claimed that even Hitler could be beaten by non-violent methods... but that it would be very, very painful to win. I'm saying that it's possible to have a bloodless revolution... but unlikely.

On another note, people have to be completely dissatisfied with their government before contemplating revolution, and the US is nowhere near the conditions neccessary for widespread revolution at the moment. On the contrary, it's closer to becoming a dictatorship than a refreshed democratic government, what with the patriot act trampling over many of the amendments of the constitution. However, hopefully the government, ie the senate, will stick to it's word and throw the thing out as soon as the war is over and it's no longer needed. God help us all if they don't.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 06:11   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

I think a second Civil War would be more likely with the polarizing our country is seeing.

The Electoral College does favor smaller states a little, since its membership includes an additional two members per state regardless of population (like the Senate). The "Winner-take-all" system now in place is what really needs to change, along with staggered primaries (Pennsylvanians got one Presidential candidate to choose from in the last dozen or so elections. >).
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 07:55   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is a second American Revolution feasible?

Quote:
Marijuana is much worse, at the moment, than cigarettes for you. The smoke you inhale can be ridiculously worse for you.. can't remember the exact multiple but it's at least 2X worse for you, on a joint-cigarette basis.
True, and someting I expected to hear. Its a normal argument from anyone who read all the crap the DARE program published, but if you run the numbers it is no where near as dangerous. For starters how much pot does a pot smoker smoke? Ok how many cigerettes does a smoker smoke? Pot smokers I know might smoke a joints worth a day and these guys use it a lot more than most. Adverage smoker is a pack a day. Even if the pot is 2x as bad the cigerette smoke is still doing 10 times the damage. Pot smokers also quit earlier in life, while most smokers go on till they have serious health problems. Also since marijuana is illegal there are no filters. Without filters cigs would be even worse. Marijuana is also relativily easy to quit. Especially when compared to cigarettes. The tar in marijauna is more plentiful, but cigerettes contain more cancer causing agents, over 2000 if I remember right and we haven't even named hundreds of them. The ingredient in Marijuana, THC, can also be extracted and used without health side effects except for the minor short term memory loss over a period of time. If you remove nicotene and use it directly you are likely to overdose and die. Nicotene is horrible for your circulation, and tobbacco is likely to cause cancer in any part of the body it sees constant contact. If you dip that would be your mouth, and if you smoke your lungs die. Marijuana, well you see pink elephants and forget what you had for breakfast :. My favorite part... in history two deaths have been 'reported' to be caused by Marijuana overdose. One was a monkey in a study to prove marijauna could cuase an overdose. He actually died because they forgot to supply him with air, he died of suffication do to the giant bong he was attached to. The other was a man in England... To bad no one bothered to actually do an investigation into whether the marijauan killed him. They just found traces in his blood :-\. Well there is water in my blood now, so I must be drowning.

Also while we are discussin revolutions I would like to add George Washington was a Marijuana user and dealer. Grew it on his plantation...

Quote:
it's just that it's much easier to abuse the illegal substances because they tend to be more addictive
As stated marijuana is not in any way addictive compared to cigerettes. It is actually less addictive than alcohol, sugar, or caffine .



I have also put serious thought into a revolution actually the day before this post cropped up. Even though it would be really hard. A military uprising would be impossible. Sure we defeated the british with our first revolution and at the time they were the most powerful military. However we had stronge leadership, and equal weaponry back then. Today it would be stomped into submission. The media would crusify us(for those of you who agree with the idea), the government would sieze our assets so no capital to fund anything, and the FBI/CIA would be hunting us down as terrorists and our rights would mean nothing due to the patriot act. The way to do it is like how Martin Luther King did. You bend the media against them, and you gain the supporters no one thinks of. If I did it I would start a revolutionist 'party' instead of a revolution with the promise of removing corruption and big business control in politics. The only problem with 3rd parties is lack of followers because they can't get the word out in the two party controlled media. So I would go to the minorities. Like us there are many people who see the problems but won't join the third parties because they tend to do badly and never make it past creation. If you want lots of people to go against the current government and flow of things the people being oppressed tend to be the first to rise up because they have a lot to gain. Like Martin I would hold huge (multiple)protests and use the media get the word out. Do that to get people listening, get on some talk shows, gain more of the minority vote, and many minorities who don't vote would for a party that was actually going to fix things. It is very doubtful it would work, but its better than the wispering from accross the street that third parties do today. The key is getting the word out, and gaining media attention. Its yelling louder than the current parties that is hard.

Lincoln had little experience and was from a small party. Now his face is on Mt. Rushmore...

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