Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

Mob Rule! Or does it!
Reply
Old 12 May 2010, 19:25   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spring, Tx
Posts: 2,264
Default Mob Rule! Or does it!

My question is the mob rule allows you to switch to the unit size for leadership. Let's say I use weaken resolve to lower your leadership to -10 with leadership 2 being the lowest does a or b takes place.

A. Your leadership of 7 is lowered to 2 for the turn. But when you take a test you can switch to mob size making you leadership 10 max.

B. You have a -10 modifier. So even if you switch to a 10 leadership the - modifier will still put you at 2 leadership.

Yes I know at 10 or higher the unit is fearless. But your leadership still gets lowered if you're fearless or not.

To me I think it's a -10 modifier cause even at a squad of 9 you shouldn't be able to just ignore negative effects towards leadership like marker lights lowering leadership for pinning.
__________________
Beware of O'Shova and his furry!
chicop76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 19:29   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Behind you!!
Posts: 3,308
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

hi,

As I understand it you substitute the Ld 7 for a higher or lower leadership value, then that value will be affected as per usual rules unless you become fearless due to it.

Although I am ready to be corrected. So don't take this as definite.

- Will
__________________
NADS
Will of Kaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 19:33   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,327
Send a message via MSN to ollieb8
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

This is how I would interpret the rule: imagine a squad of 20 ork boys, so the leadership of the unit would of course by 10 and they would have fearless. If a Psyker Battle Squad afflicted a -7 penalty on the said unit of Boys, I would say that both abilities affect the squads leadership simultaneously. Therefore the unit would get +10 (or 9, I always forget the exact wording for the rule) from the Mob Rule and also gain -7 from the Psker Battle Squad. So the squads leadership would be effected by +10-7=+3 which of course make the squads leadership three higher than normal and therefore not fearless.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafe
Edit: Silk Spectre wins the thread.
[spoiler=40K Clones]Wanna play as clones in 40K?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Circus
I'm amazed at how balanced this is. I salute you.
[/spoiler]
ollieb8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 19:42   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spring, Tx
Posts: 2,264
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
hi,

As I understand it you substitute the Ld 7 for a higher or lower leadership value, then that value will be affected as per usual rules unless you become fearless due to it.

Although I am ready to be corrected. So don't take this as definite.

@Silk: Thats an intersting way of looking at it. That a 10 man squad giving -10 and the Mob rule giving +10 will cancel out.

I would disagree simply cause the mob rule replaces your current leadership. I don't see it giving you a +10.

- Will
Orcs usally have a leadership of 7. If you have 20 orcs than they are fearless with leadership 10. Fearless doesn't stop all effects. It stops morale and pinning and some cases auto regroup. But let's say I hit the squad with a neural shreader, death leaper - d3 to leadership, mindwar, or any other effect that effects leadership.

Just because you're fearless doesn't make you immune to mind war. I can see your leadership jumping to 10 so mindwar is less effective on big orc squads. But my question is mainly on negative modifiers and than hitting with mind war afterwards.
__________________
Beware of O'Shova and his furry!
chicop76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 19:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Behind you!!
Posts: 3,308
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
hi,

As I understand it you substitute the Ld 7 for a higher or lower leadership value, then that value will be affected as per usual rules unless you become fearless due to it.

Although I am ready to be corrected. So don't take this as definite.

@Silk: Thats an intersting way of looking at it. That a 10 man squad giving -10 and the Mob rule giving +10 will cancel out.

I would disagree simply cause the mob rule replaces your current leadership. I don't see it giving you a +10.

- Will
Orcs usally have a leadership of 7. If you have 20 orcs than they are fearless with leadership 10. Fearless doesn't stop all effects. It stops morale and pinning and some cases auto regroup. But let's say I hit the squad with a neural shreader, death leaper - d3 to leadership, mindwar, or any other effect that effects leadership.

Just because you're fearless doesn't make you immune to mind war. I can see your leadership jumping to 10 so mindwar is less effective on big orc squads. But my question is mainly on negative modifiers and than hitting with mind war afterwards.
Ahh, ok then I would agree with Silk Spectre that they would cancel each other out.

- Will
__________________
NADS
Will of Kaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 21:00   #6 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18,087
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Spectre
This is how I would interpret the rule: imagine a squad of 20 ork boys, so the leadership of the unit would of course by 10 and they would have fearless. If a Psyker Battle Squad afflicted a -7 penalty on the said unit of Boys, I would say that both abilities affect the squads leadership simultaneously. Therefore the unit would get +10 (or 9, I always forget the exact wording for the rule) from the Mob Rule and also gain -7 from the Psker Battle Squad. So the squads leadership would be effected by +10-7=+3 which of course make the squads leadership three higher than normal and therefore not fearless.
They are definitely still Fearless. All that has to be true is that there are at least 11 models in the unit.

Mob Rule can be applied at any time. It always lets you substitute the number of models in the unit. Personally, I don't think the Psychic Battle Choir would work against a large unit at all. It reduces your base Leadership, but the Orks can always choose to substitute their Leadership for the number of models in the unit at any time (including later in the IG player's turn). So the most the Choir could do is reduce the Leadership of a small unit from its base to the number of models in the unit. In this case it might help to remember that they do have a direct attack as well.

Imperial Guard special rules don't get to simply override Ork special rules. If the PBC rule effected Leadership Tests (like the Markerlight), there would be no question that the penalty would carry over. But since it only effects Leadership, other abilities should be able to influence it as well.

It is the same with any special rule that allows a model to use another model's Leadership (such as Rites of Battle). Weaken Resolve changes your Leadership. If you are not testing on your own Leadership for some reason, the power has no effect on that test.

But for the sake of balance, I would let the modifiers count at the same time. Thus, a 7-man PBC exerts a -7 penalty and Mob Rule in a 20-boy mob exerts a +20. Since the total is 13, they are Leadership 10. Since there are at least 11 models in the unit, they are also Fearless. So a PBC would be able to influence Ork Mobs of around 15 boyz, but bigger mobz would require some casualties. There is justification in the rules. Mob Rule always lets you substitute the number of boys in the unit for Leadership (not just for tests). If a psychic power effects Leadership, you can technically substitute the number of boys in the unit in that power's description. So anything that attacks Leadership will simply effect the number of boys in the unit instead. As stated previously, Mob Rule doesn't allow you to ignore modifiers to Leadership Tests. One of the strengths of Weaken Resolve is that it is normally effects base Leadership for an entire turn. However, against Orks I believe this wording works against them.
khanaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 May 2010, 21:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spring, Tx
Posts: 2,264
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

If it effects base leadership than I see your point. I'll reread resolve again since I understand mob rule effect. It's mainly for mob bikers I'll face. A squad of 4 or less isn't a problem. But more than 4 I can't instant kill.

I heard both sides and just want to make sure how the resolve effect would occur. If the -10 applies to non mod leadership than mob rule would negate. But if it applied to all leadership rolls than it would still effect mob rule.

Actually I'll reread both rules again. I'm waiting to see how the organizer would rule it as well. But if I go to the next level the ruling could change.
__________________
Beware of O'Shova and his furry!
chicop76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 May 2010, 02:50   #8 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18,087
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Like I said, I think the fairest way to treat it is to add the modifiers. This makes Weaken Resolve useful against 10-man units of Nob Bikers, but not against 30-man mobs. That is how I would rule it if I were an organizer.

I absolutely despise the power, though, so I am a little biased.
khanaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 May 2010, 12:33   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spring, Tx
Posts: 2,264
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khanaris
Like I said, I think the fairest way to treat it is to add the modifiers. This makes Weaken Resolve useful against 10-man units of Nob Bikers, but not against 30-man mobs. That is how I would rule it if I were an organizer.

I absolutely despise the power, though, so I am a little biased.
I could live with that. I couldn't pin or force the 30 man squad to run. But leadership 2 in combat would hurt. But than again their fearless anyway.

Its mainly for nob squads and nob bikers why I ask anyway.

Thinking about it more. That's why I took the callidus is mainly cause of the allocating cheese.

But your leadership wouldn't go pass 10. The way I see it is your leadership is redudced to let's say -5. With a leadership of 7 it would drop to 2. Orcs can replace their normal leadership for 10 in a squad of 10 or more where 11+ is fearless. The -5 modifier still effects leadership so they would have a 5 for leadership.

I guess it's the old magic player in me that sees it this way. If it effected leadership at that instant than I could see switching to 10 to negate it. The problem I have is it last for the turn stating the squads leadership is reduced by x for the turn. Even switching for mob size it's still leadership. If the leadership was define as someting else than yeah I can see it negating. The only keyword that bothers me in the mob rule is normal.
__________________
Beware of O'Shova and his furry!
chicop76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 May 2010, 15:18   #10 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 18,087
Default Re: Mob Rule! Or does it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
The problem I have is it last for the turn stating the squads leadership is reduced by x for the turn. Even switching for mob size it's still leadership. If the leadership was define as someting else than yeah I can see it negating. The only keyword that bothers me in the mob rule is normal.
The issue is that an Ork player can switch back and forth as many times as they need to. People forget that Mob Rule is optional (not the Fearless part). Guard players generally want Weaken Resolve to be a modifier on Leadership tests, but that is not the way it is worded. Other abilities that use something else in place of Leadership would not be effected the same way.
khanaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mob Rule. chicop76 Orks 22 04 Oct 2008 17:30
1 Vs 1 Vs 1 Rule MrBrown General 40K 6 25 Sep 2008 01:50
Rule Help. Texibus Tau 1 04 Aug 2008 00:38
Mob Rule Q? Hyena031 Orks 8 07 Mar 2007 14:27
Tau Rule! ShasLa Tau 21 06 Jun 2006 20:40