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To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 15:29   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

I'm one of those odd Ork players who does not give every single Nob in my army a power klaw <gasps>. I'm a fan of the PK, it's our swiss army knife, but that swiss army knife comes at a cost. Let me explain my views on the PK.

A Nob with a PK is S9 on the charge, a Warboss is always S10 with one. The value in having such high strength is obvious, you're wounding damn near everything on 2's, you can take on monstrous creatures, Dreadnoughts, and smash vehicles. There isn't anything that the PK is not effective against. It may be a bit overkill in some situations but always effective none-the-less.

Now a downside is the cost, it's not cheap. If you put one on every Nob in your army (or most of them), and or ICs, then you're easily spending 150pts or more to get all of them. Even the 150 is on the low side for some of the lists I've seen. I feel there comes a point where you can have too many PKs...yep, I said it. When your spending on PKs can buy you entire units then I feel you should evaluate that spending. Are you better off having all those PKs or instead strengthening existing units or possibly even buying a unit you couldn't afford otherwise by having so many PKs?

Another downside is swinging last. This is far less a problem for those who field large mobz of Boyz, you've got the bodies to absorb wounds and let the PK swing, but those who field smaller units like Trukk Boyz may find the PK a little less effective, or if not less effective then more expensive since you have so many smaller units. I still field PKs in smaller units but I don't in every unit. There's value in swinging at I4 on the charge. You get to swing with MEQs (Marine equivelants), and swing before armies like Tau, Imperial Guard and even Orks. The value of having a decent initiative is no better displayed than looking at armies like Eldar or their dark kin, though of course their initiative is far better than decent.

I'm a huge fan of the big choppa. You get to wound easily and swing at I4 when you charge. Don't underestimate the basic Nob kit either of slugga and choppa, giving you 5 attacks on the charge and again at I4. I run 3 Nobz this way in my Nobz mob and those 3 Nobz are putting down 15 attacks between them on the charge. Then add in my Painboy and 2 more Nobz with big choppas and I have 27 attacks charging at I4. I also give my Nobz a Waaagh! banner so I'm hitting most things on 3's to top it off. My last Nob does have a PK and his job is cleanup.

Now the same applies to the Warboss. My most common loadout on my Warboss is using a big choppa. Giving him an attack squig gives me 6 attacks on the charge at I5 (before MEQs!), and at S8, so strong enough still to insta-kill things. Having my Warboss swing before MEQs means less attacks on my Boyz and in turn more Boyz to swing back.

I do also run a Warboss with a PK and I run him with my 'ard Boyz and the Nob there also has a PK. The 'ard Boyz are more suvivable in the small size I run them, as Trukk Boyz, and so I'm less likely to lose a handful of Boyz before my PKs swing. Using the 'ard Boyz with 2 PK equipped models has a good synergy to it.

Again, I love PKs and I'll never say they aren't worth taking, they so are, but what I am saying is evaluate if you really need 8+ PKs in your army.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 18:58   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

Hi Thor!
Another great topic. I was wondering if you were going to post on it
I also love the PK, (The most I've ever put into a list at 1850 is 10) but I find that it's utility is also really measured by at what level you play.
At 1500 or less, the Orks are less likely to be facing units that really need overkill.
Because, at the end of the day, the PK is truly about getting a few really good hits against something that just won't die.
You're likely to see some Beakies, but not enough to warrant straight out over the top killing, and anything else won't have the armor that you really need to worry about bringing the can opener for.
The Big Choppa works wonders at I4/5, and will kill anything that needs a bit of a push. (i.e. anything non-marine)
It also works wonders on Ork lists. The most painful thing I've ever seen has been a Nob unit with Big Choppas charging a unit of Killa Kans. Kans hit at I2. Sorry Kans, it was nice knowing you. It's also the cheap and wonderful weapon on vehicles, as you get plenty of tank-busting ability for 5 points.
Oh, and Dreads should worry if the Nobz get off a charge, as even S7 (it's the same strength as a Deffgun after all) can get those big Kans taken down.
As you've mentioned, it does lack in IC killing (if not on the Warboss). Also, I've learned to not rely on the Warboss w/BC too much, as you still need that Beakie Boss to roll a 1 or 2... Still, it's better than being taken down by a Librarian.
One thing I also wanted to mention is that the PK is very good as a threat deterrent.
At higher level games, there's always something walking around like a Dread that would love to suck in your mob of Boyz and just laugh at their attempts to hit him. For that reason alone, I carry the PK because you just... never know.
In any case, the Big Choppa is a wonder, and who knows? With the advent of the Nids, I may have to switch back...

Best,
-BT
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 20:24   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

You certainly need PKs on the table, no doubt about that. With the PK being the swiss army knife that it is, make sure you have them. I have them spread out in my army, so I do have some units that wouldn't stand a chance against a Dread but my army being as fast as it is I can easily (usually), avoid that Dread and send in the right Boyz for the job to deal with it. The nice part about being a fast army is you can deal with the threats you want to on your terms...in an ideal game anyway

For those that play the green tide type of list then a PK in each mob is a good idea. When you have 30 Boyz then you don't much care if your Nob swings with MEQs, you take your wounds, the Boyz swing back and then the Nob cleans up. Also, with a green tide list you are putting down less units, they're larger but there's fewer of them compared to a Speedfreek list, so you can afford to put a PK in each unit.

PKs are also a big threat everyone knows about. Most games I play I'll get asked which Nobz have PKs because they want to avoid those units, this definitely can work for you. They'll ask about my Nobz mob and how many PKs, so I tell them one. This seems to make them less cautious of the unit since they were expecting 3-4 in there. Then at some point the Nobz will slam into something and the volume of attacks at I4, easy hitting and wounding changes their mind on the threat. Nobody ever thinks a Nob with a slugga & choppa is a threat and they never ask how many big choppas you have. By the same note, knowing people like to avoid PKs will let you play out their fear to your advantage.

In the end I think it's really about balancing out your list and finding the right spots for PKs to create a synergy. Just because something can have a PK doesn't mean it needs one.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 20:27   #4 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

I guess I tend to favor the Klaw more in the Klaw vs. Big Choppa debate. It is a different question from the Power Fist/Power Weapon balance, because Orks tend to have lower Initiative anyway, and the Big Choppa can't get through armor or provide an extra attack. But I do lament the cost.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 20:51   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

I wouldn't compare a PK to a big choppa, they really are different tools for different jobs and that's the thing I guess, knowing when you need a PK and when you don't. I'll always have PKs on the table but I'll also always have big choppas and even sluggas and choppas. I run a Speedfreek type of list and having some Nobs, or the Warboss, who swing at or before MEQs has come in handy, especially when my already small units are thinned down and another round of assault will see my unit dead before the PK swings.
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Old 19 Jan 2010, 23:32   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

With nobz you really have 3 close combat setups you can use, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

1 - Power Klaw
Pros...Wound everything but wraithlords, and some new nids id expect, on 2's. Ignores armour saves on those annoying marines/terminators/necrons etc. Minces vehicles (also buzz saws very good on koptas for vehicle hunting) and they can easily batter up dreads, defilers and other walkers. (against sentinels its even amusing)
Cons...25 points PER POWER KLAW. in a squad of 10 nobz your already paying 200 points. You want to give them at least 4+ armour save or a painboy and 5+ invunrable save. THis gives you 50+ more points. Buy waaah banners, bosspoles, what not and then chuck another 250 points for power klaws. THats way too many points in a squad of 10. Also they strike last ALWAYS. Your opponenet charges you when your in cover, they still strike at the same time as you, librarian can take the warboss out dying this way :P

2 - Big Choppas
Pros...5 points a piece makes it alot cheaper. on the charge nobs are strength 7. Good non monolith/land raider hunting weapon in close combat when it comes to vehicles, and fairs alright against dreads and walkers too. Will wound most standard troops on 2s at normal initiative, even though still allowing armour saves.

Cons...your paying extra points and still not piercing any sort of armour. Front armour 12 walkers can prove toughish in combat, and land raiders and monoliths laugh at these puny choppas. Against terminators they might strike first but the termis will beat them to kingdom come with their return attacks.

3 - Choppa and Slugga
Pros - 5 attacks per nob on the charge at strength 5. This is NOT bad. It doesnt cost anything, and a squad of 10 nobs gets 50 attacks at WS5 (waaaah banner) which wound guard, eldar on 2+, marines on 3+ and wound plague marines on 4+. Its alot of attacks and it doesnt cost any extra points.
Cons - Strength 5 offers minimal chance against walkers (maybe excluding sentinels, war walkers) and wont hurt MC's very easily. Fairly decent chance at rear armour 10, but anything more and its not really much hope. Really only good for absolutly bombarding normal toughness units with lots and lots of attacks.

So yes everything has its job, and it depends on what you need in your army and the role it plays. THere are two roles that matter in 40k. One is the ones which your units do (their job) and the other role that matters is what happens with the dice (your job) :P

Lord Zambia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
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Old 20 Jan 2010, 00:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

Wait a moment.....

A S8 Nob with PK cant hurt a Wraithlord? The Nob is S8, the Wraithlord is T8, thats a 4 to wound by my maths?

Hang on again.

Missed the On 2s part. sorry, my bad. [Headdesk] [Facepalm] [Headdesk]
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Old 20 Jan 2010, 00:33   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
Missed the On 2s part. sorry, my bad. [Headdesk] [Facepalm] [Headdesk]
These moments we have are love/hate moments. In a way they are comical :P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhontauel
4 lightening claws LMAO. wouldn't the inquisition get involved?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedibean
Killing terminators with flamers is like trying to stop a charging elephant with a fly swatter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genmotty
if your not going to change your ammo between battles then you deserve to be giving people rashes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetrino
Ah, that's a shame. It's kind of funny, because I'd imagine that running headfirst into a force field would pretty much ruin your initiative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire at Will
Why not take over France? You could do it with a pistol, which in doing would make you the most armed man in the country.
Want to play Robot Wars using 40k Concepts? PM me for details on how you can get your FREE copy of the rules.
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Old 20 Jan 2010, 01:14   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Zambia
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man They Call Jayne
Missed the On 2s part. sorry, my bad. [Headdesk] [Facepalm] [Headdesk]
These moments we have are love/hate moments. In a way they are comical :P
In a humiliate Jayne kind of way i think.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circus
It is (and this is an objective statement, looking at examples over the last century) really ****ing hard to terrorise the British.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shas'o Ahab
In parting, I've discovered why Farsight started his breakaway faction...
*Farsight looks at Dawn Blade* "Shiny..."*Farsight picks up Dawn Blade and looks around* "... let's be bad guys."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The man they call Waffles
Jayne you y'xa'uuk legend
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Old 20 Jan 2010, 03:33   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: To Power Klaw or not to Power Klaw

Right now I have four big choppas modelled in my army, but I might try to make one more Thor. I have one on my Warboss, another on a stormboy, and two in my nobz squad. I find going at initiative is their best asset, its just praying to Gork or Mork to get through the armor saves that can hurt. The first time your Warboss instakills a 180 point IC you'll smile for a day though.

Right now all my trukk boy nobz have a power claw, and I run from 3-6 depending on points. I mainly do this because I anticipate at least half my trukks getting blown up on the way in. If I loose my pk trukks then my big choppa nobs won't be able to deal with the same threats.

I can see trying one out though, which would give me points for a few boarding planks. Run the big choppa trukk in front to screen the others, and make the opponent choose between the close threat, or the more dangerous one.
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