Tau Empire Codex 2013 | Army Builder Program
Dark Angels Codex 2013
Chaos Daemons Codex 2013
Chaos Space Marines Codex 2012

Warhammer 40k Forum Tau Online

 

Warhammer 40K Forum

'ard Boyz - Tactica
Reply
Old 11 Jan 2010, 18:40   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,645
Default 'ard Boyz - Tactica

Felt the urge to write another tactica/guide since 'ard Boyz seem to be getting more popular lately.

An 'ard Boy costs 4pts more than a normal Boy, which is a pretty significant price increase. For every 3 'ard Boyz you buy you could have 2 more normal Boyz, IE: 3 'ard Boyz or 5 regular Boyz. So, is the 4+ save worth the big price increase? In my opinion, yes they are worth it, you just can't use them like you would normal Boyz or you're going to waste your points and then they won't be worth it.

I take 12 of them and give them a trukk, which is my suggestion, give them a ride, any ride. I also will attach a Warboss with them to make them dead stompy. These guys have a 4+ save but if you're going on foot then you're going to lose them. It doesn't take a genius to realize getting into assault with Orks that have a 4+ save is not in their favor and they will do what they need to in order to remove them. A 4+ save is better than most people give it credit for, even from shooting. However, on foot things like plasma cannons, plasma guns, Vindicators, assault cannons, autocannons, and many more, will laugh at your 4+ save. Having a larger mob of 'ard Boyz will help you deal with casualties but really you shouldn't be walking these up the board like regular Boyz, that's what regular Boyz are for, not the unit you paid almost double for!

So give them a ride. Their 4+ save is best used in assault, not trying to shrug off lots of shooting. You need to pick your targets carefully, don't just throw them at anything, again that's what normal Boyz are for. You want to attack units where you can use your 4+ save, so don't attack a unit that has power weapons, not if you have a choice anyway. If you attack appropriate units, units where they aren't denying your save, then you'll quickly see the value of 'ard Boyz.

Let's give an example here. Let's say we have 12 Orks in a trukk with sluggas & choppas, 1 is a Nob with a PK. The Orks are charging 10 Assault Marines and the Sergeant has a power sword. Normally I wouldn't charge this unit because of the power sword, but let's say it has to be done and it does make a good example.

Regular Boyz
Marines: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 3.75 dead Orks
Sergeant: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .75 dead Orks

Orks: 26 attacks, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, 1.67 dead Marines
Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.67 dead Marines

Marines Kill: 4.5
Orks Kill: 3.34

Marines win combat

'ard Boyz
Marines: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 2.25 dead Orks
Sergeant: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .75 dead Orks

Orks: 32 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 dead Marines
Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.67 dead Marines

Marines Kill: 3
Orks Kill: 4.34

Orks win combat

The obvious difference is the 'ard Boyz win the combat. The normal Boyz most likely would have been swept, but had they not been swept then they are fighting at half strength and no longer charging...not good odds for the Boyz. The 'ard Boyz won their combat though and have more Boyz left. Since we're fighting Marines we know the odds are they won't run and the fight continues. The 'ard Boyz are no longer charging so the fight is harder now but they have that 4+ save to keep them stuck in and they are outnumbering the Marines now. The 'ard Boyz will be able to clean up the remaining Marines in a couple of assault rounds.

Other than power weapons, try and avoid units that also have an insane ability to wound. A great example is a Seer Council with witch blades (wound on a 2+). I did this last week, being pretty ignorant of Eldar ways, and charged into a 10 strong Seer Council with 'ard Boyz and my Warboss. Of course Eldar swung first and smashed away a big chunk of my unit. I still got my 4+ save but the Eldar having ability to wound on a 2+...well, I had to make a lot of 4+ saves. I retaliated but the Eldar still won combat and I was subsequently swept. In one round of combat I just lost a 270pt unit. Live and learn.

So in summary, give them a ride and get them into assault with units where that 4+ save is going to shine. Use your normal Boyz for tieing up Terminators, Dreadnoughts and the like, and use the 'ard Boyz to bury and remove the weaker units.
__________________
Thor{DoH} is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 19:30   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Now, or I release the scarabs!
Posts: 2,609
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

A very good tactica, But why are the 'ard boys getting 12 more attacks? I can't see any statline difefrences or is it to do with initiative. Even then there should only be 9 extra attacks for ard boyz if the orks are second and your counting the dead or am I missing something?

I like to put my 'ard boys in a battle wagon with a boss and send them charging into the enemy as it allows you to have a larger squad so you get more use out the ard boys upgrade as you can only use it on one squad.
__________________
[img width=650 height=87]http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/shakey_aj/Imperialnecrons.jpg[/img]
Visit 'Unholy's log of war!' for all my latest modelling stuff!
Unholy Harbinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 19:42   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 80
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unholy Harbinger
A very good tactica, But why are the 'ard boys getting 12 more attacks? I can't see any statline difefrences or is it to do with initiative. Even then there should only be 9 extra attacks for ard boyz if the orks are second and your counting the dead or am I missing something?
I think Thor took in account the fact that the marine strike before the orks and killing some. With hardboys the number of dead orks is diminished because of the better Save roll. Thus we have more attacks in close combat.

On the tactica, i agree, give the hardboys a ride. Walking them on the board is just offering a juicy target for the AP4 weapons.
__________________
5th ed W / D / L
Tau 0 / 0 / 0
Chaos 3 / 0 / 0
Tyranids 1 / 0 / 0
Imperial Guard 0 / 3 / 0
Orks 1 / 0 / 0
levincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 19:46   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,645
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

levincent has it right. In my examples the Marines swing first. The regular Boyz end up losing 6, leaving them 5 Boyz and a Nob to swing back with. The 'ard Boyz only lose 3, leaving them 8 Boyz and a Nob, so they get more attacks back than regular Boyz.
__________________
Thor{DoH} is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 19:50   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego, California, North America, Earth
Posts: 1,069
Send a message via AIM to Unusualsuspect Send a message via MSN to Unusualsuspect
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

That still leaves us with some oddities in his math.

5 wounds on the regular boys, but no saves are assumed to be made. Sure, a 6+ save isn't much to write home about, but 5-7 is about the number of wounds where we'd expect that one lucky son-of-a-grot to actually make use of those bitz o' metal and leather they strap on.

Then we see the 5 wounds on the 'ard boys, where not only are saves made, but the 'extra' 4+ save is assumed to be made.

For the purposes of parity, either one of the 6+ saves for the regular boys should be made OR the 5th save on the 'ard boy should be assumed failed, especially since a single 6 amongst 5 wound rolls is much more likely than a 4+ on a single roll.

Edit: Not to say that 'ard boys aren't worthwhile - They've been plenty killy against my Tau several times, no doubt! I'd just rather the math not show obvious bias when it comes to "assumed kills".
__________________
I you private dancer.
Unusualsuspect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 19:52   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Now, or I release the scarabs!
Posts: 2,609
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

Quote:
Originally Posted by levincent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unholy Harbinger
A very good tactica, But why are the 'ard boys getting 12 more attacks? I can't see any statline difefrences or is it to do with initiative. Even then there should only be 9 extra attacks for ard boyz if the orks are second and your counting the dead or am I missing something?
I think Thor took in account the fact that the marine strike before the orks and killing some. With hardboys the number of dead orks is diminished because of the better Save roll. Thus we have more attacks in close combat.
But if there is a difference of 3 orks dead they have a base of 2 attacks with 3 on the charge, 3 dead means 9 lost attacks not 12? The 12 difefrence would be for 4 dead orks difference not 3.

After reading thor's post (ninja'd) I believe I am missing something somewhere as in my head the umbers aren't adding up. My guess is I am not counting an attack for a weapon though having never played an assualty army i am fuzzy on that. Is the choppa conferring +1 attack for an extra CC wepaon? Because that would explain it.
__________________
[img width=650 height=87]http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/shakey_aj/Imperialnecrons.jpg[/img]
Visit 'Unholy's log of war!' for all my latest modelling stuff!
Unholy Harbinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 20:03   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego, California, North America, Earth
Posts: 1,069
Send a message via AIM to Unusualsuspect Send a message via MSN to Unusualsuspect
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

Let's go through the numbers again with slightly more "accurate" averages, shall we?

Regular Boyz
Marines: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 3.75 unsaved Assume 4
Sergeant: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .75 unsaved Assume 1*

Orks: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved Assume 2
Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.67 unsaved Assume 2

Marine Kills: 5
Ork Kills: 4

Marines win combat

'ard Boyz
Marines: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 2.25 unsaved Assume 2
Sergeant: 3 attacks, 2 hits, .75 wounds, .75 unsaved Assume 1

Orks: 32 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.67 unsaved Assume 3
Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.67 unsaved Assume 1*

Marine Kills: 3
Orks Kills: 4


*Why just 1? Between the two types of kills, that'd be ~4.33 kills. As for the first, I'm giving rounding up, and 4.5 is riiight on the edge.




See? More accurate math still gives you your point, though its pretty clear the fights would be much more closely matched than you gave the regular boyz credit for, and that unit does put you back an extra 44 points... but then, you do WIN combat a majority of the time, instead of (more often than not) tieing or fleeing, thus losing at least that many points on the PK Nob.



Edit: Unholy Harbringer, I believe the OP is using the assumption of Choppa & Slugga boys, who have 2 CC weapons, thus an extra attack over the Shoota boys. The assumption is that they're also charging, thus also gaining an extra attack.

Edit II: I should probably mention that I don't really like "average" mathhammer, especially when representing firefight or close combat exchanges, due to the problems of rounding up or down, and the inherit bias that results. I could perform the probability mathhammer for this scenario since it involves only 1 round of combat, but frankly, that'd be a lot of work over something I have only a passing interest in. Since you're writing a tactica, Thor, it might be worth your while to put TRULY accurate/representational math to support your ideas, but frankly, I don't see the necessity - the math you're using is basically to say A) That 'ard boys are, well, 'arder to kill, B) That 'ard boys can win close combat even against a foe of necessity rather than opportunity. (A) went without saying, really, and (B) was shown to be "on average" true.



Edit III: You're still assuming 5 dead space marines from the 'ard boys? The average kills for the squad is ~4.33, not what i'd consider the minimum for rounding up to 5 (4.5). Your tactica, your mathhammer suppositions, I suppose.
__________________
I you private dancer.
Unusualsuspect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 20:38   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,645
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

I clarified my original post, yes the Orks have sluggas & choppas, so those Boyz have 4 attacks each on the charge. The Nob has a PK so he's 4 attacks on the charge.

I did also clean up my math. I was just going for simple, trying to make a point, but now I have the math laid out as Unusualsuspect had done in his post. I left the numbers un-rounded and worked it through entirely that way. Meaning when the regular Boyz swung back that 6.5 Orks swung back instead of rounding. I was trying to keep it pure.
__________________
Thor{DoH} is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Jan 2010, 23:35   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 743
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

Ah 'Ard Boyz, one of the new gems I've found to covet!

I took up 'Ard Boyz on a whim because I wanted to field two Battlewagons, and I tend to play at higher points (1850 or thereabouts).
Once you start nearing 2000, Trukks really lose their lasting capacity, as almost anything on the board is carrying something that can pop them.
I was thinking about taking 20 boyz, but I wanted a unit that would stay around.
Granted Boyz would be cheaper without all of that extra armor, but I took them, and like them for a couple of reasons.

1. It throws off people's gameplan.
Ask any marine player, and he knows there's a "magic number" when you can assault Orks or receive an Ork charge and come out ahead. Sadly enough, 20 Boyz isn't that much for a well kitted out unit, and a group of 10 assault marines, if they get the charge, will tear apart a unit of 20. So, you may be able to obliterate a unit with a group of 20, but you won't be able to survive a counter assault. I didn't like these "hard and fast" rules, because giving up a kill point seemed a bit ludicrous, especially if you've spent the time to get them there. 20 Ard Boyz though, can easily survive assaults and stay stuck in. (which is important, more on that later)

2. You can survive fearless wounds.
Sometimes, the dice just don't like you, and you'll lose an assault by a decent margin. If you're fearless, you'll be losing massive numbers of boyz, and yes, be torn to shreds the next turn. Having heavy armor really lets the Orks live through this very well!

3. Explosions? Why not?
Ever want to do entirely crazy things but fear that your stuck in mobs are too close? Never fear, for the 'Ard Boyz are here!
Having a 4+ save means you can drop Grotzooka rounds, frag Kannon shots, or even Lobbas next to them without worry. If they scatter onto you, you might take a few wounds, but it's a far cry from the massive losses you'll take otherwise. Tactical options, definitely.
One sort of crazy option is to target your scattering shots onto a nearby enemy unit and hope for lucky scatters onto your assault! Granted you might take some hits, but so will your opponent Definitely an option if you're playing against high initiative but relatively fragile assaulters (like Eldar or Tyranids).

4. Flamers? Eh? Alright then.
Ever want to see Guardsmen cry? Have a group of 'Ard Boyz get hit by 3 flame templates and walk away with a smile (and maybe a downed boy or two). Being able to resist a lot of normal templates confuses a lot of anti-horde mates. Just... don't get too cocky. There's plenty of AP 4 templates out there, but it's nice to be able to ignore the usual cheap flamers.

5. Our Wagon went boom! Eh? So What?
Perhaps the best part about 'Ard Boyz is that they take very few wounds from an exploding Battlewagon. This can be shocking for a group of marines who have melta'd your Wagon thinking they could get an easy assault as you would lose about a third or so of your Boyz. But not the 'Ard Boyz!

So for 4 more points, they solve a lot of little problems that I have with small numbers of Boyz, and especially in the melta-heavy environment, they prove to be excellent Battlewagon riders.

Best,
-BT
BigToof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 Jan 2010, 12:24   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,645
Default Re: 'ard Boyz - Tactica

The flamer bit is so true. Played my friend's IG and he had a squad with 3-4 flamers in it that he fired on my 'ard Boyz. In the end I lost 3 of them, stuck around and then proceeded to kick the snot out of him for trying to make me do the burny dance. His comment was something like, "I've never had that happen," which made me smile. Heavy flamers on the other hand you should avoid like the plague
__________________
Thor{DoH} is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trukk Boyz - Tactica Thor{DoH} Orks 7 11 Jan 2010 17:25
From AoBR Slugga Boyz to Shoota Boyz Zen Conversion 6 02 Oct 2009 01:48
boyz, freeboota's and weird boyz, it's roll call! lets_get_em_boyz Orks 3 10 Jul 2008 06:30
How to: make Burna Boyz from regular Boyz [pic heavy] scoutfox Orks 14 21 Feb 2008 20:45
Slugga boyz Vs. Shoota Boyz in the new 'dex Nightmare Orks 37 13 Nov 2007 10:31