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Dealing with mech lists
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 12:46   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 999
Default Dealing with mech lists

Orks have a problem. We have very little AT. Of course, we can go mech ourselves and try to mitigate this with BWs and Trukks and get up close faster. However, our Trukks are easy to take down and our BWs, although tougher are still vulnerable and expensive. Battlewagons and Trukks will take all the fire until they pop, and lthey aren't the toughest armour although the BW is not terrible.

Traditionally our options are

Rokkits - With our miserable BS2 not very reliable and really they are only S8 as well.

Biker Nobs w/ PKS - everyone is prepared for Nob Bikers now. Any good player has a plan to deal with them and they are expensive

Large Mobs w/ hidden PKs - the trick is to get them to the tank and score enough immobilized hits on a moving tank

Lootas - Up to AV 13 this is one of our best options. Imperial Guard tanks are front armour 12, so Lootas need 5 to glance and 6 to penetrate. We need numbers here.

Tankabustas - Usable but very tricky. With an abysmal save you really have to be careful.

Killa Kanz and Dreads - Well, I actually am a fan of the Kan wall. You have at least the option to do some damage if you can get down table.

So the 5ed mech armies are going to give us a hard time. Guard in particular can gear up and really destroy us with templates. I've lost 30 strong boys mobs in a turn. We need a distraction to get to our opponent's lines before we are decimated.

So let's experiment ... let us use some of the best choices in the codex and see a hypothetical list that could possibly work in 5ed without any vehicles other than our Walkers.



EDITED per comments

HQ - 235

Warboss, Bike, Power Klaw, Cybork
135

Big Mek
KFF, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork
100


Here is an interesting choice for HQ. I have a powerful Warboss wand I need a beast in combat that can separate from the mob and go after targets by himself if required. I back it up with a Kustom force field to protect my forces. I tried Thraka but Doofus has convinced me to take a Boss that can keep up. He will disengage when needed from a boys mob and rejoin if required.

Elites - 360

12 Lootas
180

12 Lootas
180


This for me is the bare minimum for a respectable force. I just need Lootas. Some will argue that Warbuiggies can do their job but there again we have the problem of survivability, especially without other mech elements in the force.

Troops - 604

30 Shoota Boyz, 3 Rokit Launchas, Nob, Bosspole, PK
250

30 Shoota Boyz, 3 Rokit Launchas, Nob, Bosspole, PK
250

15 Gretchin, Runtherd, Grabba Stikk,Squig Hound
52

15 Gretchin, Runtherd, Grabba Stikk,Squig Hound
52


This is not written in stone but I like as large a mob as possible and Grots are the best value for the bang in our codex. Always take at least one squad. They can tarpit, sit on objectives, cover, etc. Too many uses for such a low cost.

Fast - 115

2 Deffkoptas, 2 TL Rokits, Buzzsaw
115


I need something to scout forward and take a tank out or at the very least cause a distraction.

Heavy Support - 435

3 Killa Kans
Grotzookas, DCCW
135

3 Killa Kans
Grotzookas, DCCW
135

3 Killa Kans
KMB, DCCW
165


This is the glue. The kan wall supported by the Warboss and the Meq allows us to march forward with at least a chance of not being totally wiped out by turn four. It also makes your opponent think about assaulting those Kans when the Warboss and the boys can counter charge. The Meq provides the cover saves.

Now again this is a base. You could use Deffdreads in your list with Scorcha/KMB at 100 points. You could use more Grots and less boys. You could downgrade Ghazzie to a regular Warboss.

I have tried three BW lists, Speed Freak lists with trukks, and horde lists without Kans. All get raped by good 5ed mech lists. Is this better? Well, it is an alternative. It does not rely on reserves and needs to go first if it reaslly wants a fighting chance. Missions will dictate strategy to a degree. At 1750 it has the bodies and some AT. It can fight hordes. It has some balance.

I'm not sure if I would take the list as is to a tournament. I would want to tweak it a bit I'm sure. This is not a Dreadbash list in the purest sense. I have not gone into as much detail as I have in the past ... check the Ork library on why I chose that particular Kan, why Koptas are good, how to use Grots, etc. It is all in the library already. This is not a tactica. It is personal musings and it is the reason I stopped playing my Orks and play my Eldar and IG more these days. Early on before the craze, both myself and Wargamer discussed Nob Bikers and mech lists on these forums and we presented their weaknesses as well as their strengths. We also discussed why they would eventually be beaten (before the winning tournament lists, btw). I think Orks are a fine army but I also think they suffer a bit in 5ed. We need to find solutions.


So what say you?

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Old 23 Nov 2009, 13:03   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

I just played in a tournament this weekend with what I call my Speedmek list. It's basically what it sounds like, lots of Trukks, a BW, some Kans, a Dread, Looted Wagon...some other stuff. Just a mix of speed and mech. My 2nd game was against an extremely vehicle heavy Iron Warriors army and turn by turn I dismantled his vehicles. He had 6 Rhinos and a Vindi and by the end of turn 5 he only had 1 mobile vehicle left. In short, I'm sure nobody wants a turn by turn breakdown, I focused the Looted Wagon on Rhinos (everything was embarked), Kans firing grotzookas as they moved into charge range, Dread backing up Boyz, Kannons laying down vehicle shots, and Boyz racing forward to disembark and charge vehicles. I did also have Kommandos with Snikrot who tore open a vehicle. Those re-rolls to hit are perfect for charging a vehicle that's moved and you're needing 4's or 6's. Oh, my buzzsaw Deffkopta who scouted took out one also.

As for your list, I'd say it's more than capable of dealing with a mech list.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 15:16   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

Looks competitive to me!

;D
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 16:38   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

I love this list! But if you wre to add snikrot, like thor said, well then id think it would be complete! I cannot count the number of games snikrot has either won for me or at least turned the game in my favor. Only tihng i do differantly with my koptas is just take one with a buzz saw.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 18:33   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

Hi All,
I wanted to just add a few things on the Anti-Mech lists:

1) Tankbusters with a Warphead:
If you've never tried it, I would thoroughly recommend it. I've talked about it at length, but it's really a great way to take out vehicles. Granted you are fragile, but there's ways around that. (Also I've talked about it before, so I won't go into it )

2) Rokkit Buggies and Deffkoptas
Both are fast and can get side rokkit shots (the golden shots vs Chimeras). Both are twin linked. The Deffkopta can also Buzzsaw in for a turn 1 surprise (or a turn 2-5 outflank). I personally use only 2 Deffkoptas, as buzzing up turn 1 cannot be ignored and must be taken down.

3) Deffrollas
If your group allows it (it is controversial... still), Deffrolling vehicles is a great option, especially if you have something nice inside for delivery.

4) Boarding Planks
I used to chuckle at this option until I used it a few times. It's wonderful. Zoom in, hit something and stay SAFE in your Trukk. It works against all vehicles, and it forces people to try and get you out of your Trukk. If you ramshackle, you can even get out of range, spoiling their attempts to flame you.

Best,
-BT
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 23:03   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists


Just a few replies ...

The basic list is just that ... a template to work with. You could use Wazdakka and Bikers in the boys mob slot and Ghazz's and still do okay.

Rokkit buggies work best when you have other vehicles in your list. Don't get me wrong. I think Rokkit Buggies are great and highly competitive. If I used the aforementioned bikers as my troops in they would go.

I'm not a huge fan of Kommandos. If you are winning games with Snikrot - who IMHO I find too expensive - then your opponent's are not setting up well. I might be tempted to use a small infiltrtaing squad with Rokkits though.

Tankabustas - not in thisd list I think although I love your writeup Big Toof.

Let's not get into Deffrollas and Boarding planks. If I could move my full 12" inches and use the boarding plank I would consider it but my list is predicated on no vehicles at all other than Walkers. As to whether Deffrollas can ram - I think not.

I'm looking to determine how competitive an Ork list we can make by thinking outside the box. You are going to be restricted by point considerations and by the armies you are likely to face. I like the idea of using two Deffjoptas wioth one Buzzsaw as Big Toof mentions. It works in a competitive environment. I'm not saying other lists cannot win. I'm looking for the most consistent build with Orks and trust me I've played a lot of them.

In the end though we will each take what we can from a given list and modify to our taste.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 23:30   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

Silly question, but if we're running a lot of Boyz, why not take Stormboyz?
They're pretty fast and can tie up troublesome templates coming in from cover and the wrong angles.
At worst they'll suck up fire that will allow the boyz to take down some of the nastier problems out there.

One of the problems I've noticed is that IG in particular is a fan of just driving around laying out templates into your horde, then if you hit them a bit too hard, then they explode (sometimes doing more harm to you than them), and then bunching you up for more templates...
Perhaps the best tactic is take a glance and move on?

If a vehicle is stunned, perhaps our best job is to then ignore it.

Yes, that's right, ignore the transport and press on. If you move past it and just keep boyz within an inch of it's hatches, then the IG can't get out to cause you more trouble, and you've just pushed past the "steel curtain" so to speak.
...
In fact, I bet you could deploy your unit so that it would be VERY HARD for them to put big templates on your boyz without touching the vehicle "in the middle."
Plus, that vehicle (if so cunningly adjusted) could provide cover for your boyz...

Just thoughts,
-BT
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Old 24 Nov 2009, 00:30   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists


Quote:
if we're running a lot of Boyz, why not take Stormboyz?
I like Stromboys ... are they troops ... no. Do they take up a valuable spot in your FoC if you want to use those buggies and Koptas ... yes. I want to build the most competitive list that I can. Unfortunately Stromboys are good but not good enough.

Quote:
One of the problems I've noticed is that IG in particular is a fan of just driving around laying out templates into your horde, then if you hit them a bit too hard, then they explode (sometimes doing more harm to you than them), and then bunching you up for more templates...
Yep. IG give us major headaches. Your tactic is not bad. But those template laying tanks are too far back to proivide cover. That ois the problem. We need to get them but IG always bubblewrap therir tanks - well good IG players use bastion control anyway. As for spreading out ... a must against most IG lists. You might have seen mine. I use a template with a possible 12" diameter!
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Old 24 Nov 2009, 02:01   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists

How is snikrot not worth the points? In an all comers liest, he is nasty. And if he makes my opponent deploy differantly and closer to me, well thats a win in my book. I do not take a 15 strong squad, but i take 10 instead and is always effective
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Old 24 Nov 2009, 02:33   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Dealing with mech lists


If you like them use them. I won't in a very competitive list. In casual ganmes I'm all for them but I need consistency in a tournament all comers list and for ME they do not make the cut. I'll take Koptas, Buggies and Lootas first. I use Marbo in my IG list but I am aware that a squad with Autocannons is better. That doesn't mean that Marbo is not good. He can be a lot of fun and he often does damage.

He is like a nob but he cannot take anything from the armoury, and you are paying an extra points for a few special rules. I prefer to take a nob with a power claw for the same price. If you feel that his special rules might sway a few rounds of shooting for you than he might be worth it Remember though that he has no boss pole. He has no power klaw. He does they are still I3 at best off the charge,not ignore armour saves. Kommandos must fit into your game plan or your throwing points away. They are I3 on the charge so you are going to hit last most often. If your using them to tank hunt then as I said I would prefer the smallest footprint and infiltrate with Rokkits. Poor reserves rolls can hurt you with Snikrot. But the main issue is that I have better uses for that FoC slot. If I had 225 pointts I would definitely take mopre Lootas before I touched any Kommandos. Now these are my experiences so if they are working for you then that's okay by me. I want the dakka to take out skimmers and transports turn one onwards.
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