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Making "Poor Choices" better
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Old 19 Nov 2009, 12:17   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Making "Poor Choices" better

Hi All,
I wanted to start this thread, if only to help combat a lot of the list building that I see brewing on the internet.
It's always interesting to read tacticas, but I do find that it starts skewing your thought processes.
Case in point: A number of tacticas (especially at umm, other sites) start to grade the choices available to certain slots.
Now, for some reason, these opinions (and they really are) stay around no matter how the meta-game of 40k changes.
This thinking is especially concerning as it prevents people from ever seriously trying out the "Poor" choices of army lists and seeing if they work for you.
Because, in all honesty, everyone plays differently, and tacticas are all geared towards how the writer plays. (And that's a talk for a later date...)

This thread is devoted to anyone who wants to post about something that you found works for you, even though they might be maligned by others (or the inter-nets).

I'll start:
My first foray into this sort of business was the combination of a Warphead (my all so favorite Big Louie) and her Tankbuster entourage.
I had been thinking about using Tankbusters before, but came away disappointed.
But, with the new appearance of Mech (of every kind), the Tankbusters went back into my list for a second go.
And boy, did they go! (in the good way)
It was by chance I tried the Warphead with them, as I thought they might work well together, and I really wanted to try the Warphead, but wasn't sure who to stick her with.
But they work together well, I'll try to explain why.

1. They compliment each other's deficiencies.
The Weirdboyz/Warheads are much maligned because they lack mobility. They cannot run, as half the time they produce a shooting effect or a Deep Strike. This fact alone means that any unit (such as a mob of Boyz) are going to be ground to a halt and cannot say... WAARGH into a unit which is where you want them to be. The shooting effects are interesting, but really well... not too helpful. A small S6 plate is good for getting wounds on people, but what about the S10 strike? Completely useless if you're in a mob of Shootaz with Big Shootas, as they won't have a chance against anything that you really want to throw a S10 at. Ideally, you'd like something you can shoot at. Also, being random as to whether you deep strike or not can be crippling for a scoring unit, as they might teleport OFF an objective on the last turn! (ack!). So, you can see why, tactically, Weirdboyz seem like a horrible choice.
Tankbusters are considered to be perhaps even worse (next to the Flash Gitz on the bottom of the barrel), mostly due to the fact that when 5th came out, there wasn't that much Mech, and Tankbusters will refuse to shoot at anything else if a Tank is in LOS. Add to the fact that they lose mobility, as they MUST shoot at a Tank despite of range, and you have a lagging unit that might not do all that much.

So, in short, two units, horrid mobility, and questionable utility.

So how do they perform together?

Answer: Wonderfully!

Why?
Almost every power that the Warphead generates is beneficial to the Tankbusters (except err... 'Eadbanger) of course...
Frazzle (the S6 small plate) is great for hitting fragile mech (Rhinos, Landspeeders, anything S10), and the fact that it automatically hits is glorious as well.
The Zzap (S10 MELTA hit) is the Ork's only Melta weapon and when used together with Tankbusters, well, now you have a serious threat to AR13+ vehicles.
Warpath gives you an extra attack, something that seems useless at first, until you remember that there is a wonderful thing called: The Tankhammer.
An S10 weapon that is fairly mediocre with only 3 attacks, but with 4 (!) attacks on the charge, well, even fast movers will start to get worried. And it makes Dreads quake in their oversized shoes
'Ere We Go is also rather glorious as it lets you Deep Strike. This seems rather ludicrious at first, but when you realize that Tankbusters are now in the REAR of your steel line... this is a threat that cannot be ignored. That is, if you don't have two vehicles taken out of commission first... (Remember with Bomb Squigs and a bit of good deployment, you can take down two vehicles a turn!)
And WAARGH is good because... well... it lets the rest of the army surge forward and save your overcompensated tuckus

2. They are UTTERLY DISPOSABLE
One of the reasons why Mech IG does so well is that not much can stop the line of steel once it gets going, and no Ork worth his salt is going to get in their way... Or so it seems.
But Tankbusters can!
Throw the Tankbusters in the way (preferrably in cover or with some KFF help). And then give them a tough choice.
It seems simple, just Tankshock the Orks out of the way and... Tankhammer. What's that? A S10 automatic hit? A good chance of stopping the tank? You don't say
Doing this once to any IG player will make them stop at your green line. And there you have it. You've just taken back the movement phase
Granted the Tankbusters will probably die to shooting (shrug), but you've tied them up and prevented them from rolling forward and casually melting you from inside their little boxes.
And remember: UTTERLY DISPOSABLE. They aren't scoring and thus, really aren't necessary to keep around except to cause mayhem

3. So Many Tricks!

I've found so many little tricks with this combination, I'll share a few:

A. Falling back, falling back, wait... what?
With 'Ere we Go, the Warphead can Deep Strike anywhere, even if you're falling back. So, deep strike BACK into your opponent's deployment zone and cause more mayhem. It makes the back of the board so MUCH futher away And with 24", you've got a LOT of shooting room!

B. Glory Hog... Not?
If you want to get a tight leash on your Tankbusters, there is a simple, but effective little trick: Go to Ground.
Granted it'll cost you a turn of shooting, but if you don't want your Tankbusters to leave cover/objective to try and assault say... Bjorn the Fell-Handed, just have them go to ground and you'll keep them in position
A simple method that doesn't require a vehicle or other LOS blocking nonsense.
And remember, Dreads assaulting through cover are your friend Tankhammer anyone?

C. RUN AWAY!
Tankbusters are the perfect "get hit and melt away" unit. You often don't want something expensive or massive to tie up something killy like... Thunder Hammer Termies. But, letting the Tankbusters take the hit will mean that the Busters will lose combat and WILL run away. And remember, with this unit setup, running away isn't necessarily a bad thing (24" range on their weapons and umm... Trick #1).

D. Carnifex DESTROY!
Even though they aren't technically a Tank, Tankbusters maul the HECK out of Carnifexes (at least those without 2+ save). Getting 3-4 hits on a decent sized squad will bring a Fex down! And add in the Warphead for a decent big shot and you suddenly have an MC killer!

4. Keeping them around a little longer.
Ok, say you actually like them and want to keep them around a little longer (Maybe you've named them or something ), the best gift any Warphead could ever recieve is a Battlewagon. A big nasty one with a Killkannon. You're not planning on moving the Wagon more than 6/7" a turn anyway, so you might as well have a scary gun for cleanup. Remember that the Killkannon can shoot at a unit that the occupants have not, so if you're lucky, you can hit a squad that just had to disembark or re-crater the vehicle you blew up.
Warpheads also put a S6 hit on the rear armor of a vehicle they are in instead of suffering the usual 'Eadbanger effects, so it can make you a bit more daring on the re-rolls. (Granted accidentally blowing up your expensive Wagon is bad, but really, it's all in good fun).

5. Always underestimated. The first time.
Nobody will shoot at this unit. They might point and laugh. But nobody will shoot at it first turn and then you've done your mischief and can sit back and watch people waste shots on them. And remember: UTTERLY DISPOSABLE.

Looking forward to other's comments/experiences!

Best,
-BT
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Old 19 Nov 2009, 12:23   #2 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

I don't play Orks, but it's good that you're looking at units other people have written off as useless. Looks like you've put quite a bit of time/thinking into this too. +1
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Old 19 Nov 2009, 12:57   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

Great writeup and I'll add this to the Library.

I completely agree with you about not taking the "internet's" advice too seriously. I generally find that the people who put so much thought into an army to start assigning point value factors to units, or some means of evaluating "effectiveness", are generally die-hard tournament players whose only objective is to win. If that's your goal then listen to their advice, however no matter what everyone needs to come to their own conclusions, don't let other people make your choices for you.

To that end you've come up with a well thought out synergy and I applaud you.
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Old 20 Nov 2009, 15:20   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better


Quote:
This thread is devoted to anyone who wants to post about something that you found works for you, even though they might be maligned by others (or the inter-nets).
I'll chime in here with another berated unit on the internet. I'll preface this comment by saying that your title intrigued me.

"Making "Poor Choices" better" hmmm ...

You know it is not really a question of having poor choices. It is recognizing that all the choices in the Ork codex can be used with good results by competent generals. There is nothing wrong with Tankabustas. And there is nothing wrong with one of my favorite units.

Flash Gits are deemed naf because people cannot justify the cost and because they sit in the heavy slot. As far as dedicated shooting is concerned, you are better off with Flash Gitz than Nobz, assuming you can spare the Heavy Support selection. Flash Gits are also still I4 on the charge. I like to use a a battlewagon of Lootas and a Mek supported by Gitz - or look at it vice/versa. They also back rhe previously mentioned tankabustas quite well. They are shootier Nobs. In an army designed to be less smashy and more shooty they excel as they can absorb a lot of firepower and cannot be ignored. Another trick is to use a squad of them with a warphead. Teleporting them behind enemy lines to blast things is very Orky.

First , the Gits are cheaper than Nobs with the same stats.
Second, who uses all their heavy slots unless going battlewagon heavy?
Third, they can pack aP1 hits! They have the greatest chance of low AP shots in the 'dex and also can stand up in CC.

When I used these guys I used them in big squads. I never recommend Baddrukk - not enough punch for the cost.A minimum of eight gits is needed to make them effective and yes, they cost alot of points. But we get a Painboy for FNP and Cybork bodies. We also get nifty upgrades;

Shootier - for more wounds
More Dakka - for more hits
Blastier .- Get's Hot hit isn't so much an issue due to Armor / FNP and this is our best option vs. Meq/Teq.

The potential for Flash Gitz to inflict massive amounts of damage to themselves and others is definitely the epitome of Orky technology. So how do I use them? I use them with just the more dakka upgrade. I sometimes go without the Dok as well ... an invulnerable save is nice but guns that instant kill are your biggest threat and you can get cover saves. Flash gitz are a shooting unit but they are also an assault unit that has decent firepower on the way in and doesn't run. Don't compare them to Lootas but use them with Lootas! Advancing and laying down a withering S5-6 hail of fire, with a 50% chance each shooting turn to cut through beakie armour is good and thats before they get a chance to pile in and krump. So think what a squad of Nobs with a Warboss costs and then look at this ...

7 Gits, Painboy, Cybork, More Dakka w/ Warboss, 'Eavy Armour, Cybork, PK, Bosspole
380 pts

Adding a warboss to your Flash Gitz will make anybody cringe at thought of assaulting them and if you have PKs in your army elsewhere, you can rely on shooting if you into an Meqs or Teqs. They are dead killy with more dakka. A 4+ Armor save, and 5+ inv save, and two wounds make them shootier Nobs. Stop repeating what has been written about them. They can be tactically very flexible - more so then Nobs and can like Nobs be given a transport. The Warboss is cheaper than Badrukk too and has a Bosspole.They shoot on the move and then act as a non-pk Nobz squad on the attack with the Boss as backup. They are designed to chase infantry or provide mid range mobile firepower and are decent in melee when needed. Git finders are extremely useful too.

AP? is a pain. You really don't know if you are going to roll 6 against that Teq squad. But if you back them up with BWs, if you have a KFF hanging around, then go straight for the Meq/Teq/MCs. They will cause some wounds and hit a ton of bricks in an assault. Don't think of them as having a 24" range. They have a 30" range - move and shoot. Don't compare them to other units in the codex. Yes we know you can get 30 shoota boys and three big shootas for the cost. But you will not get the survivability or tactical flexibility that Gitz have.

So yes, don't listen to everything you hear.
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Old 22 Nov 2009, 11:10   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

Thanks for all the replies and additions!
I wanted to add one thing to the Tankbusters:
They prevent last turn Skimmer Shock, as simply put: Tankhammer to a Wave Serpent stops that business cold!

Best,
-BT
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 03:01   #6 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

I like this thread! Way to go for positive thinking and trying to work outside the box. I'll try to put some thoughts together to contribute here. Nicely done thusfar.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 12:44   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

Good response, nobody's home. A few things though.

1) Flash Gitz cost the same as normal Nobz. Flash Gitz are actually 5pts more per-model but come with the 'eavy armor, so they break even in cost. I'm assuming you're referring to cheaper in the sense of wargear?

2) I almost always use all my heavy slots, it's really not that hard when you have so many options. I often field a Kannon battery, sometimes Lobbas with them, Kans, a Dread, and a Looted Wagon...again it's not hard to use those slots without even touching Battlewagons.

3) I can't argue that but it is unreliable and really shouldn't be "the" reason you take them but it is a consideration.

I'm not arguing though. I don't think Flash Gitz are worthless but they, like Tankbustas, don't belong in everyone's list. Some people just prefer units that are dependable, eliminating as much randomness as they can. I'm not one of those, the random nature of Orks is half the reason to play them in my view. I plan to try them out for sure and so this was a good read.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 15:52   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

I think this is good thinking.

I do not play orks (I prefer technologically advanced races).

:P
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 17:02   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

I don't have anything comprehensive, but I wanted to toss 'ard Boyz in this discussion. I played in a tourney this weekend and brought a unit of them in a Trukk and they worked out well for me. Once I got them into assault they really shined, as expected. When a unit I charged lived through that initial assault I had the armor save to keep me in there and win through attrition. When I'd lose my Trukk I still had a 4+ save from shooting. I know some people say there's so much AP4 weaponary in 40k, and there is, but usually not in such quantities to destroy the entire unit in a turn either. Things like lascannons, meltas, missiles, plasma guns, etc., can fire on my 'ard Boyz if they want but that means my 3-4 other transports are bearing down on them that much faster.

You pay a premium for that 4+ save, 66% more than a normal Boy, and many would argue that you could get more Boyz and have better spent your points for value. I won't argue that, mathammer would support that argument, however I don't play based on mathhammer and I don't play a green tide list, I play more Speedfreak oriented. So, those saved points would do little for me because I don't have a unit I could pump more Boyz into.

In the tournament the 'ard Boyz were a rock solid unit in every game. I never lost the unit in any game and though they may not have always made their points in kills, the sheer amount of punishment they took and survived made them worth it alone. Having that 4+ save meant I had that many more Boyz swinging back at MEQs after they swung. It meant my PK'd Nob would have a few turns of assault to safely smash heads because I wasn't losing Boyz at the normal rate and finding my Nob the sole survivor and swinging at I1.

I'm just sort of rambling here but I found them to be a worthwhile unit.
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Old 23 Nov 2009, 18:24   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Making "Poor Choices" better

I would like to second the comments on 'Ard Boyz, as they really are tougher than anything.
Like many others, I didn't give them half a thought (mostly as I didn't have the points to feel comfortable using them yet), but I really wanted something with staying power in a Battlewagon.
I didn't like a few possibilities using normal boyz, as a third of them or so die if the Wagon explodes (all too often in the melta-heavy environment), and if you attacked anything, you were losing boyz in a hurry.
In my list, about half of it is fast, and half needs a few rounds to catch up, so the Wagon boyz (and Nobz) are going to be on their own for a bit.
Getting counter charged was also a big problem, as I had no problem whittling down, say a big unit of marines or such, but the marines would do enough damage that I would get rocked whenever the inevitable counter-charge occurred.
Add to the problem that if I killed TOO much, then the unit would just be shot to death, made things too difficult.
Plus, I hate to say this, but I wanted to try and make my games a little quicker, so I've been trying to take boyz off the board and put them in Wagons, if only to spare my opponent the mundanity of watching me move my green horde a little bit closer at a time.
Also, the big hordes are a pain if you have to make them do a U-turn (as in something drops into your backfield, then suddenly your own hordes are in the way of your Wagons!).
My 'Ard Boyz (nickname not made yet) have survived a truly horrendous amount of damage, working well to take down marines, daemons and the like.
Plus, the psychological damage of NOT being able to kill Orks makes people crazy
There's nothing like watching a group of Marines bolter into your squad to kill... one Ork, where before they were killing two or three.
In close combat, they stay like nothing else, which means that it's hard to move them off objectives.
Also, they really mess with the "magic number" calculations that people use vs Orks, as a lot of the vets have a "number" of attacks that they try to throw at Orks to keep them fearless and then wipe the unit out with no retreat wounds.
A lot of these attacks are normal wounds, and if you suddenly are 3x as "hard" as what they were expecting the results are pretty scary (and satisfying).
In short, 'Ard Boyz are useful for sticking in places until help arrives, and are worth the points.
However, I've found that they're best with a Warboss (with Heavy Armor too, of course), and it makes a pretty nasty unit.
Nobody thinks twice about a unit of Boyz in a Wagon, but a Warboss with 'Ard Boyz should make people worry.
If they don't, hit them with it, and after they realize that they CAN'T kill the Boyz back that well, your threat scale should go up.
Oh, and as for why 'Ard Boyz and not Nobz? Boyz in sufficient number are fearless, which is a very useful advantage if you're targeting something that needs killing (like Walkers), but don't have that much in the way of attacks. Nobz are far too valuable. There's also a number of wonderful tactics, but I could go on and on...
And lastly, you can shoot Grotzookas and Frag rounds right NEXT to them with relative impunity, something that I would never do with 20 Boyz.

Best,
-BT
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