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Back! With a Tactica Question
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 11:06   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 743
Default Back! With a Tactica Question

Hi All,
Yes, I"m back ;D

Good to see everyone, hope that new faces and old faces are still here.
Yes, before anyone asks, BatReps are coming, although the cue is rather heavy. If you'd like to see a particular flavor (i.e. Marines, Chaos, whatnot), let me know.

Came back with a tactica question, as I've been pondering how to switch up my current tactics, which I admit are much like a "Brick to the Face." I.e. run the Orks up the middle and slaughter everything.

Current List is:
Warboss w/Bike, PK, Cybork
Big Mek w/KFF
Biker Nobzx5 w/2PKs, Cyborks, trimmings
Nobzx6 w/2PKs, Cyborks, trimmings in a BW w/Deffrolla, RPJ, AP
Lootazx10
Shoota Boyzx25 w/PK Nob
Shoota Boyzx25 w/PK Nob
Stormboyzx15 w/ PK Nob
Deffdread w/Skorcha
Killa Kanzx2 w/Grotzooka

It's done fairly well, just I have found a good Marine Nemesis who runs a fairly nasty list, heavy w/ Marine Special Chars and Meltas:
Vulkan w/ Tac Squad, Melta, ML
Khan w/ Full Biker Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta
TH/SS Termiesx8 w/LR Crusader, Multi-Melta
Vindicator
Pred Annihilator pattern
Pred Destructor pattern
Land Speeders x2 w/Multi-Meltas

He plays, oddly enough, just like me, with running the whole of his army forward. The TH/SS and Khan squad usually gets the charge off and we end up annihilating each other as our "second waves" try to beat each other down.

Not sure how to deal with:

1) Hit and Run
Khan and his squad have Hit and Run, and its fairly nasty, as he usually pairs it with his Vindicator to smash my Bikers or Nobz once they get bunched up.

2) TH/SS Termiesx8!
I can deal with UP to 7 or so TH/SS Termies, but with Vulkan's ability, it's rather hard to dislodge them from the center, and no amount of Nobz seem to be able to take them down without really making less of an effort.

3) Losing the charge
His Biker squad and Termies are both very mobile, and I have yet to find a way for them not to get the charge off on almost all of my units. The games are close, primarily because I cannot find a way to get a charge off on them...

I have been considering going a bit more Mech, and adding another Battlewagon (and putting 20 Shootas in it), as the BW seems to be able to give the units something resembling protection (though in a melta-spam heavy list like his, I'm not sure if this is a good idea).
Honestly, I think I need a tactica re-build, hence the reason I am back

Thanks again!

-BT
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 13:51   #2 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

The bigger they are, the harder I hit!

I see this list as being an AT-Killer so I wouldn't recommend bringing anything with an AV value. Perhaps you can bring more boyz onto the field. Less Trukkz, more boyz. Perhaps more Nob Bikerz and maybe add some Warbikerz to your list for more speed without the increase threat from all those melta weapons.

Good to have you back, Bigtoof
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 16:41   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Consider making him come to you, don't run up and meet him if it's not working. He's got a lot of speed but being melta heavy means he's looking to get within 24" of you, and of course closer if he can, and even 24" isn't long ranged really. If playing an objective mission I'd race to the objectives and dig in, make his dislodge you. Keep your faster stuff back a bit to counter-charge in or react as needed, not to race up and meet him head on. The Dread holding back a bit to reinforce a squad being assaulted is handy also. He has to decide to ignore the Boyz on the objective to remove the Dread, or try to remove it, and get charged by the Boyz after or charge the Boyz and get counter-charged by the Dread. Force him to make choices. The more he has the target prioritize the more likely he'll make one mistake your can capitalize on. I've played my Orks very defensively in the past and I can tell you that it throws someone off. They expect you to charge headlong at them and when you don't they aren't sure what to do. Playing into the expectations someone has is only to your disadvantage, think outside the box.
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Old 01 Sep 2009, 09:39   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

As others have said already, if you're having a difficult time using speed to catch him off guard you should start playing defensively and use your speed as a counter measure. To do this successfully I highly recommend changing the shoota boyz into slugga boyz - the reason for this is that an extra attack in CC against a CC army such as his will be much more beneficial than the extra shoota attack. You may even drop the battlewagon on your nobs for more boyz. As it stands you're playing "elite vs elite" which is what space marines do best, you should play more to the natural horde element that orks excel at.

You could also fight special characters with special characters, and nothing is better than ol' Ghazzy himself! He's a true beast in combat and his Prophet of the Waaagh! special rule will help more of your units get the charge as well as last longer in combat.
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Old 02 Sep 2009, 06:22   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Why not sacrifice your loota's for this sort of occasion and spend the extra points on bulking your two nobz mobs? Range doesn't seem to be these two armies fields of battle, so why come the visitor? If your going to meet in the middle, be ready for it there!
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Old 02 Sep 2009, 20:42   #6 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Posts: 397
Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigToof
Hi All,
Yes, I"m back ;D
Good to see!

Quote:
1) Hit and Run
Khan and his squad have Hit and Run, and its fairly nasty, as he usually pairs it with his Vindicator to smash my Bikers or Nobz once they get bunched up.
Even with the consolidation move that you get after a successful hit and run? Don't get me wrong, I can see how this would be extremely annoying, but you shouldn't be TOO bunched up if you're allowed to consolidate afterward. Also, wouldn't a powerklaw to the face sort out Khan pretty quickly?

Quote:
2) TH/SS Termiesx8!
I can deal with UP to 7 or so TH/SS Termies, but with Vulkan's ability, it's rather hard to dislodge them from the center, and no amount of Nobz seem to be able to take them down without really making less of an effort.
Rough. TH/SS Termies are brutal enough as it is. Adding vulkan just makes them scarily good. There are some things that you don't want near you. Have you though about sacrificing Grumgutz to kill their transport on turn two or so? That would help you with...

Quote:
3) Losing the charge
His Biker squad and Termies are both very mobile, and I have yet to find a way for them not to get the charge off on almost all of my units. The games are close, primarily because I cannot find a way to get a charge off on them...
This is a place where BigToof and his Steelgrotz can be useful - if only to "take one for da team". In other words, have you ever run a kanwall (well, a Kan/Dread wall) to prevent the marines from charging your boyz? They'll likely die to the T-hammer terminators, but they'll draw them out of their transport, which should be enough, even with a consolidation, for you to get the drop on them with your boyz and nobz.
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Old 02 Sep 2009, 21:10   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 743
Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Thank you all for your comments!

First, let me say that Khan is very annoying in just that he is able to maneuver himself so that he is out of range of the Klaw for the first few turns (usually by sticking a normal biker against the Klaw, so that the Nob has no chance of being base to base). With T5, the poor charged Orks are S3, and can't take down many Bikers (maybe 1-2 a turn...) while Khan can simply sit things out.
The Vindicator strike is rather annoying, and although I can spread out after a hit and run, he usually keeps me boxed in rather well with the Land Raider.
I don't lose a lot of guys, but still losing 2-3 Nob Bikers hurts.

As for the TH/SS Land Raider, well, I've been Deffrolla-ing it second turn without too much of a problem, but by that time, Khan and the TH/SS Termies are usually deployed, making the big machine unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. He's also introducing me to the unfortunate rule that lets Machine Spirit shoot even if the tank is shaken and moved 12", which means that the TL Multi-Melta has usually done its job by the time the LR is destroyed...

The Kan wall works sort of well, but he's been ignoring the Battlewagon and focusing on the Kans, which unfortunately cannot take too much punishment from TL Lascannons and Meltas. BigToof can usually get in to do some hurt, but the TH/SS Termies usually assault him ALONG with something else anyway, and can usually come out rosy even from THAT scrap (which is fairly scary).

I think my problem might be that I run the boyz too close to the kans, as the Termies can usually assault around the big walkers with no real problem (with the LR they do have a 20" or so assault range!)

Best,
-BT
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Old 03 Sep 2009, 14:23   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Posts: 397
Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Well, now that I think about it, you're running more of a "Kan Castle" than a Kan Wall. With seven dreads it is pretty easy to screen both my vanguard mobs and the battlewagon with my mek inside. With three dreds/kanz, you could probably screen one mob.

Here's what my kan wall looks like. Something to think about. I bet Big Toof would love some more steelgrots to boss around.


Here's your kanwall being approached by some nasty guys with ork-krumping on their mind.



You'll note that I've put a 1" bubble around the termies. This is because the idea of the kanwall is to prevent the initial termy from assaulting into the boyz. Then you just have to make sure that no further terminators can assault into the boyz. Remember that your opponent will have to be within coherency of the models that have already assaulted AND cannot pass within 1" of an unengaged model.

I'll be honest, I'd be really uncomfortable in this situation, as the loss of even one kan would put a hole in the kanwall big enough for the termies to exploit. In addition, you have no cover to the flanks, so that if Khan decides to outlfank with his bikers, you're going to be in trouble.

If more Kanz are out of the question due to the points cost, (and I know I'm going to get jeers for suggesting this) have you ever considered grots? They'll die first turn to the thammer termies, but they'll provide a much more cost effective wall against termies...
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Old 03 Sep 2009, 15:58   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 743
Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Droofus:
Thanks for the great suggestion (and even greater photos ).
If monetary concerns weren't a problem, I'd look into getting more Killa Kans (I did the silly thing and bought another Battlewagon for 'Ard Boyz instead...).
Still, it is something to consider, putting all of the Kans in front (although I'm not sure which mob I'll be trying to guard...) However, with all of the TL meltas running around, I don't think the Kans will be staying around well enough...

After reading my post and doing some thinking, I realized a rather cost-effective way to deal with Khan.
Make the Boyz mobs back to 30.
Put the Nob in the middle of the mob (near the front). When Khan assaults, move the Nob with PK up so he can actually do some damage.
Seems simple, but it will solve my problem about always getting the Nob hung up in front/too far away from the fighting. With 30 Boyz, even Khan won't be able to hurt them ALL in two turns, giving the mobz some survivability.
I've also been playing around with the Foot-slogging Nobz, and have made a pretty good combo of 7 Nobz (3PKs, 3BCs, WB, BP, Kombi-weapons for fun and of course the Painboy).
If deployed properly, they should break the Bikers. The Termies... less so. However, if they assault in with BigToof, at least it'll make it a more decent fight!
Also was thinking about using Burnas, but they seem too unreliable...
Grots are an interesting idea, but the screen seems unreliable, given that the LR has hurricaine bolters
Hopefully I'll be able to get a game in soon, and I'll let you all know how things go.

Cheers,
-BT
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Old 04 Sep 2009, 15:45   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Posts: 397
Default Re: Back! With a Tactica Question

Good call with the nob in the center of the mob. That's a good strategy for another reason too. Say someone does 12 wounds before trying to assault your squad. You can simply remove those orks up towards the front and deny them the assault. I routinely have a "facepalm" moment when I attempt to deny my opponent a charge by removing forward models, only to realize that I put my nob up front as well.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the grots. Remember, if he wants to fire the LRC to full effect, it can only move six inches. I think your situation might be the first in a while that has me reconsidering groz.
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