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Available AT Power for Orks
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 17:05   #1 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Location: London, ON
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Default Available AT Power for Orks

What things in the ork list offer them tank-killing capacity? What are the best options for reliable or sustainable Anti-tank?

So far the options as I've found are:

1) Powerklaw Warbosses on bikes.

This option is expensive as frube, and takes an HQ slot from your army. Whats more is that he is unreliable at best vs. Skimmers.

2) Rokkit Launchas on Boyz Mobs:

This option has tons wrong with it. If in a shoota boys mob, it requires that all other orks in the mob are wasted on an armored target for two (basic mob) rokkit shots, which will only hit their targets 33% of the time and are at a mediocre S8 with no possible bonuses for armor penetration or Tank Hunters. It has very little ability to kill any of the prime tanks which cause threat (Leman Russ, Landraider, Predator, Vindicator, Dreadnought, Defiler, Soulgrinder, etc). Finally, it stops the mob from running for better positioning or quicker assault. The only plus to this option is that it is cheap.

3) Big Gunz:

Kannons have all the same killing power problems as rokkits in boys mobs, but are less mobile, cost more, take a heavy support choice, and are more easily destroyed. Zzap guns are a joke choice in the new codex, as they now miss 50% of the time, and don't have 2d6 armor penetration. They have FAR worse killing power than the rokkits in boys mobs. Lobbas are still useful, but not for the purpose of Anti-tank.

4) Rokkit Buggies:

Rokkit buggies or Deffkoptas with rokkits are very expensive options as far as orks go, but are the most reliable ranged AT they seem to have. Their BS2 is somewhat counterbalanced by being Twin-linked, and their speed allows them to (sometimes) get those much needed side and rear armor shots so the rokkits can damage something. They are typically a suicide unit though, since as soon as the enemy can target them with anything, they blow up quite spectacularly.

5) Tankbustas:

I include Tankbustas purely to explain why they are so bad - not to acknowledge them as even a possibility for anti-tank. I could write a three page essay on why not to take them, but here's the basics
- Their rokkits have the same killing power as those in boys mobs. AKA: why bother.
- They can be led around by the nose. They MUST fire at the closest vehicle. Any savvy opponent will simply stick a vehicle they can sacrafice into cover, forcing the bustas to shoot at an obscured target. Failing that, simply forcing them to fire at any AV14 target will tie them up the entire game.
- They cost as much as a marine, yet die just like an ork. They do not have the flash-ability to deal as much damage as Burna boys (a unit well worth the price) before they die.
- They are slow. They have no trukk option available to them - which on its own isn't too much of a penalty. However, they do not have the ability to run. Due to their special rule, they MUST fire at the closest tank, even if it is clearly out of their short range. This brings me to...
- Short range! In order to blow up any tank worth killing, they must first get into its designated horrible-rape-radius
- They cannot select their target. As a general, it's quite important to figure out what's a threat and what isn't. Tankbustas simply go "herp a derp" and fire upon the empty chimera in front of them, instead of the side armor of the russ gunning down your boys.

6) Battlewagon Deffrolla:

This is either the single best piece of anti-tank wargear in the game, or entirely useless for that purpose. It's entirely subjective based upon the ruling of your local game store.

What anti-tank do you take, and why? What options am I missing?
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Old 19 Feb 2009, 18:02   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Ninja Ork:
Thanks for opening this topic! (Love the new Avatar btw )

One thing I wanted to add straight off is that Tankbustas' Glory Hog rule actually reads as "Must try to shoot or assault a vehicle regardless of range." It doesn't actually say the CLOSEST vehicle. Found that this weekend, and it gave them a little bit less of a minus (Though severly minused by other reasons). They are actually quite effective if you can get them into CQC if only that they have tank hammers and Tankbusta Bombs. And you know, Bomb Squigs (Which are perhaps the most fun model to paint that I have ever seen)

Oh, and Round 1 Deffkopta Buzzsaw is a nasty opening trick as well. Doesn't work on Land Raiders, but a bit of a surprise if someone has left their tank off to the side

I find that Ork Anti-Tank is different than other armies as it is best described as QUANTITY over quality. One unit may not be absolutely great at taking down a tank, but if a single target is shot at by Deffkoptas, Kannons, Lootas, and then assaulted by Power Klaw, then whatever you're shooting at WILL go down... eventually.

I also wanted to bring in a few other Anti-Tank options, if only that that they're a good "second tier"
1. Lootas
Lootas are great S7 shooters, with enough shots to hit a vehicle equal to their mob size with a good 1d3 (number of shots) roll. Granted that S7 is best used to take down Rhinos (or Landspeeders... mmm....), but if a tank ever shows its side armor, S7 is all you really need. Also decent at taking down anything Eldar-flavored, as although they are AR12, they are usually boosting... (Immobilized=BOOM!)

2. Snikrot and Kommandos
If your opponent ever FAILS to move his Tanks, Snikrot will kill it. 6 S6 attacks will take down pretty much most tanks, and that also assumes that you're not hitting it with normal boyz. Granted that S4 isn't all that scary, but with 4 attacks each, you should get a few 6's (glances). And enough glances WILL take down or disable a tank.

3. The SAG
The Shokk Attack Gun is the most random piece of Ork Hardware, but when attached to a Big Mek in a squad of Grots, he becomes a fairly indestructible piece of artillery. As long as you don't teleport yourself into combat or blow yourself/your mates up, then you have a scary piece of potentially Anti-tank hardware. As ordinance, it gets a re-roll on the AP, and if you get a good S2d6 roll, then that's all you need. I've taken down walkers and Land Raiders with it. Oh, and one thing: BUY AN AMMO RUNT! Also found that out a little bit ago, as you can sacrifice your Runt to re-roll skewed shots (especially if they fall on YOUR units). Still, overall the SAG is NOT reliable by any real way, but very powerful for its range, and the ability to be entrenched. (Doing 25% to a unit of 21 in cover is rough for most people)

4. Deffdreads
Slow, klunky, and definitely going to be low on the "to shoot at" list for your opponent, the Deffdread is useful only in that he can really, really harm anything close up. He's good for a good "counterpunch" to various vehicles. Did that Landraider just drop off those TH Termies? Good, because its not surviving till next turn! Did that Monolith stray too close? Whoops, there it goes! With options to go up to 6 S10 attacks, he can take down even the toughest of vehicles, and on average will get a few good pens. By keeping him close to your base/other units, it makes it hard for Vehicles to deploy too aggressively, and to tank shock your mates. That, and you can run him through buildings and such to scare the crap out of your enemies! A DD busting through a building will make anyone take off I suppose

5. Nobz w/PK
Granted a Warboss by himself isn't enough to stop 12" moving Landraiders, but give that same Boss 2 or 3 friends with PK and then you've got a different story!

Also one thing that Hyena reminded me of is an old 4th ed trick: Namely to surround a vehicle and then KO it so that the mates inside are destroyed as well. Granted if the vehicle blows up, then it doesn't work in 5th, but MASS-GLANCING works pretty well, as you're safe from the big Boom. And Mass-Glancing is what hordes of S4 orks are all about!

Hope this helps,
-BT
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 00:30   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigToof
3. The SAG
The Shokk Attack Gun is the most random piece of Ork Hardware, but when attached to a Big Mek in a squad of Grots, he becomes a fairly indestructible piece of artillery. As long as you don't teleport yourself into combat or blow yourself/your mates up, then you have a scary piece of potentially Anti-tank hardware. As ordinance, it gets a re-roll on the AP, and if you get a good S2d6 roll, then that's all you need. I've taken down walkers and Land Raiders with it. Oh, and one thing: BUY AN AMMO RUNT! Also found that out a little bit ago, as you can sacrifice your Runt to re-roll skewed shots (especially if they fall on YOUR units). Still, overall the SAG is NOT reliable by any real way, but very powerful for its range, and the ability to be entrenched. (Doing 25% to a unit of 21 in cover is rough for most people)
In my experience if you give your SAG a PK he won't roll 5,5 in every game where he didn't have one he always wanted to assault something. last week he wanted a rhino, my opponent left him alone during his turn, and my Big Mek decided he could take on some Termies alas he could not. :'(
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 03:56   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

My take on effective anti tank units are (inorder of effectiveness)

1/ BigBattery of Kannons: Three of these bad boyz hit on 4's with up to three re-rolls. Doesn;t get any better than this for popping tanks.

2/ Warbuggies with TL Rokkits: These bad boys are better than BS3 due to the re roll. Can be fielded in squads of 3.

3/ DeffKoptas TL Rokkits: Same as buggies except they have morale problems which takes them down a notch in my books.

4/ PK are in 4th cause if your opponent knows anything at all he will keep his vehicles moving at least 6's thus making it 6's to hit. This really takes the PK punch away. Their advantage is that the PK can stay hidden in a squad.

5/ DeffDreads, are only medium armour and not that hard to pop. They do have a higher strength than a pK but only by 1 or 2 depending on the mdoel with the PK and if it charged or not. It however cannot be hidden.

6/ KillaKhans are just easier to pop and their roll should be anti infantry in my mind. Big shootas means lots of shots. Khans with Rokkits are ok but they are not TL regretfully.

7/ Tankbustas are just too expensive and just not that great of a shot. They are severaly happered by the golory hog rule as well. It makes them and easy target and just a point sink in my mind. Your opponent can essentially stand next to them with a infantry unit since they have to shoot at any visible vehcles.

8/ Lootas are expesnive, they have moral problems, variable and cannot take on heavy armoured vehicles very well. Say whatever you want but these boyz are anti infantry first and foremost. Use them for that.

9/ SAG are way to chaotic and should not be used for anti tank at all. It is 100% for killing infantry especially MEQs/TEQs.



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Old 20 Feb 2009, 04:10   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Well if a vehicle moves under 6, its 4's to hit... So most vehicles if they want to be able to shoot will be moving only 6. Are Zaapp Guns still 2D6 S plus 2D6 AP? If that is the case on average you should roll a 14 all up....
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 04:59   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Any thing fast can move over six:

1/ Space marine players with Machine Spirit, ie A landraider, can always frie at least one weapon,
2/ Tau have multi trackers that allow them to fire as if they are a fast vehicle.
3/ Eldar have all fast vehicles
4/ Dark Eldar have all fast vehicles.
5/ Orks trukks, and buggies are all fast its only the battlewagon and the looted wagons that cannot fire affter moving six.
6/ Necrons only have Monoliths and they can only move 6" and are as the toughest thing to crack anyhow
7/ Grey Knights only really use landraiders so once again Machine spirit.

The only armies that are really effected by this are CSM, Witch Hunters and Imperial Guard. Guard take the biggest hit on this but overall if you your vehicle is going to get charged by an ork squad with a PK, best to not take the shot and move it a full 12".

Zzapp guns are only 2d6 for their str now and that is it. The only thing they get on top of it is that any glancing or penetrating hit automatically causes a shaken result. Zzapp gun are only reliable for killing small squads of TEQs.
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 12:06   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

As stated in my first post, Zzap guns are now entirely usless and neither auto-hit nor have 2d6 armor pen.

Quote:
1/ BigBattery of Kannons: Three of these bad boyz hit on 4's with up to three re-rolls. Doesn;t get any better than this for popping tanks.
It really does. 2 ranged S8 hits with no further bonuses to armor penetration or damage rolls is not exceptional by any means, and given its substantial fragility it becomes less than good.

So... so far there hasn't been a single sustainable (doensn't die when sneezed near) or reliable (can actually damage or destroy a tank in one round offered) option mentioned.

Imperial Guard have sustainable AT power (Lascannons in heavy weapons squads or normal 10 man platoons, Sentinals) and reliable AT power (suicide veterans with meltaguns).
Space marines have sustainable (multimeltas/lascannons in combat squads, Predators) and reliable (drop podded sternguard/tacs with meltaguns, Assault squad with meltabombs).
Tau have sustainable (Railguns) and reliable (Railguns).

Do orks really have nothing even close to the above? It seems that our ONLY AT power is in the Deffrollas. We have masses of weak shots that can take down landspeeders, pirhanas, and sentinals - but the key is that those don't require AT power to take down. What means can be taken in an ork take all comers list to not be run over by invincible Landraiders, Hammerheads, and Russes?
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 12:19   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Ork
Do orks really have nothing even close to the above? It seems that our ONLY AT power is in the Deffrollas. We have masses of weak shots that can take down landspeeders, pirhanas, and sentinals - but the key is that those don't require AT power to take down. What means can be taken in an ork take all comers list to not be run over by invincible Landraiders, Hammerheads, and Russes?
I partly agree. But you mustn't forget that Orks have a big advantage over other armies: Sheer numbers and flexibility. As a Tau player, I can tell you that even losing a single Crisis team can seriously mess with your plan, because it is highly specialised, and fulfills a role nothing else in your army reliably does (i.e. TEQ hunting). Now, with Orks, your pure anti-tank capacities might not be great, but you get a bit of anti-tank in EVERY FOC-slot - not just Heavy Support! You can field Tankhunters in Elite (not the greatest choice, I agree, but it's still massed S8 fire), as well as Deffrolla-BWs (as Nob tranports). You can field Bazzukkas in Troops, as well as Klaws (and, again, Deffrolla-BWs as transports for Nobs). You can field Buggies and Deffkoptas in Fast Attack, and you have nice options in Heavy Support.

That's the reason you don't need "reliable" anti-tank - because you have so much anti-tank capacities strewn around your army.

Tau, on the other hand, only have a single reliable option of killing heavy armor: Railguns - which are available only in limited amounts in heavy Support, and come with a hefty price tag attached. They NEED absolute reliability in their choices, because nothing else in their army can fulfill that funtion - for example, when it comes to dealing with TEQs or FnP-units, your only reliable option are Crisis Suits with PRs - you just don't have enough AP-shots otherwise. With Orks, you can charge with Boys, charge with Nobs, charge with Burnas, Deffroll them, Zzzap-Gun them, or maybe even shoot them with Flash Gitz - all those options are reliable.

Apart from that, usually, with Orks, you can survive one turn of misfire, because there are LOADS of your Boys on the table. With Tau, you seldom have that luxury - if you need a Land raider down, it has to check out NOW, otherwise, it hits your lines, and you're in CC...

Don't complain about not 100% reliable anti-tank options. Be glad that you have half a dozen or more halfway reliable ones, which can also be used for something else, and be done with it.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 12:51   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Welcome to the life of an Ork....One of the downsides to being an ork is anti tank. If you look at what we got though and use the weapons that we that are GREAT for orks you have a lot of anti tank options. With every FOC having something for anti tank it really gives you the flexibility to build your list how you want. I still stick with my assessment for on our anti tank weapons since its what we got and for me it gets the job done and a good one of that as well.

As for the deffrolla being an AT weapon well that is a greyzone up for debate and you should always ask your opponent how you two are going to treat it.
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Old 20 Feb 2009, 16:59   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Available AT Power for Orks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena031
Welcome to the life of an Ork....One of the downsides to being an ork is anti tank. If you look at what we got though and use the weapons that we that are GREAT for orks you have a lot of anti tank options. With every FOC having something for anti tank it really gives you the flexibility to build your list how you want. I still stick with my assessment for on our anti tank weapons since its what we got and for me it gets the job done and a good one of that as well.
Don't get me wrong, I know the Ork weakness of AT, but I have no problem with it. Few problems in the 40K world can not be solved by shoving a Powerklaw into them (I actually met two of those today... Wraithlord and Avatar... <shudder&gt.
The best way for Orks to counter vehicles is - quite simply - CC. Just shove Meganobs, Powerklaws or even Big Choppas into CC; the problem is usually getting there (and some rare instances when the vehicle you want to destroy is transporting some nasties you cannot beat in CC).

I haven't tried it yet, but I think Snikrot and his ladz are also helpful when it comes to dealing with vehicles - especially stationary vehicles at the back of an enemy army (read: Artillery).

Quote:
As for the deffrolla being an AT weapon well that is a greyzone up for debate and you should always ask your opponent how you two are going to treat it.
I know that, and I'll definitely show the rules to my opponent, and let him decide.

Cheers,
-Bone
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