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PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz
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Old 27 Dec 2007, 06:06   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Default PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

I'm going to assume for the nonce that you've all gotten ahold of the Codex Orks 2007(2008) pdf out there. There is an odd bit of wording in the entry on Boyz squads. The issue is this:

A standard ork boy starts off with a slugga and a choppa. The entire mob may replace this equipment with shootas if you wish, at no additional cost. Now, here's the tricky bit: A Nob may be upgraded from a boy and may replace his choppa with a Pk for Xpts.

You see the problem? If he traded his choppa and slugga in for a shoota, he doesn't have them to exchange for a PK. So a mob of slugga boyz could have a PK Nob, but a shoota boy squad wouldn't have access to that weapon. Most of the 40konline forum seems to have gone with this conclusion, but I'd like the thoughts of those here.

My personal opinion: If you've had a chance to look over the new 'dex, you may have completely missed this little detail (I did). The word "replace" is used throughout the book in other manners that do not present restrictions, and it seems to be for convenience and consistency that it was implemented in this case. I think it's intended that the Shoota Nob not benefit from an extra attack (2CCW), but not that he couldn't take a Klaw.

Discuss.
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Old 27 Dec 2007, 13:11   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

The debate on that has been going on since the leaked codex, so I got nothing to add to it. However, though I haven't read it yet, apparently in the latest (I think), WD they have a battle report of Orks vs Ultra Marines (beakies anyway), and in it they have a Shoota Boy Nob with a PK. From what I've heard there's no mention of the PK'd Shoota Boy Nob, but it's visibly represented. So, guess we're going to really have to wait for further clarification.
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Old 27 Dec 2007, 13:51   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

I saw a battle report in WD once where a unit of berserkers was in a rhino that exploded, and the next turn they moved and assaulted something, instead of being entangled for a turn.

The day you trust anything you see in a White Dwarf battle report as being anything more than them rigging the game for the new army to win is the day I have some bridges to sell you.

That said, it is likely that the FAQ will tell us that it's ok for a nob in a shoota mob to have a powerklaw. But, as it's worded currently, that's not legal.
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Old 27 Dec 2007, 16:01   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

I have to concure with Redbeard about the wording as it currently stands about Shoota Boy Nobz and Power Klaws.

That written, I do not put mistakes in the Games written up in White Dwarf as anything more than a simple mistake made in a complex and highly interactive gaming system. Call me a Denier, Anti-Truthseeker or whatever. I think all of us can look back on games in retrospect and realize that unintentional errors were made. This can even happen to the experts.

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Old 27 Dec 2007, 16:36   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

If it was just once or twice, I'd agree with you Iveatch, but it's every single report. Some rule that gets in the way of the new army winning is ignored.

I agree, I've made mistakes in games in the past, as have people I've played with and against. But we don't then go and publish these. If the casual readers can spot these mistakes, shouldn't the magazine editor?

It comes down to the fact that the rules are second-class citizens in GW's world. They don't care. As long as the miniatures look good and sell, who needs good rules.

Look at their FAQ page, which hasn't been updated in over a year. They find time to do elaborate articles on how to buy more models and convert more models and paint more models, nearly every week, but they cannot be bothered to issue a one line sentence to tell us whether you can both mind-war and eldritch storm in the same turn.

It's a disgrace, and it's the reason that so many of the people I know (and know of, on various forums around the net) are looking elsewhere for their gaming. GW isn't alone anymore. Ten years ago, they could get away with this mentality, because what else was there? But now... you have Warmachine. (Mini's by original 'Eavy Metal guy Mike McVey) You have their Hordes game. You have Starship Troopers (developed by ex-GW Andy Chambers). You've got Flames of War. There is competition.

And it's not GW's minis that are losing them business, it's their lackluster approach to the rules of their games. They're a publically traded company. It's a matter of public record that they're struggling. And that's after having enjoyed market domination for many years. Because they continue to neglect the reality that gamers want good rules as well as good minis.

They've promised, on a couple of occassions, to be better with the FAQs. At Adepticon last year, Jervis was the guest of honor and in his presentation he pledged that they'd be regularly updated. But they haven't been touched.

I hope they get the picture sooner than later, because more and more people are getting fed up with it. I've got a lot of money invested in their gaming system, but if I cannot find a game, I'll be looking to Warmchine or Flames of War too.
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Old 27 Dec 2007, 17:50   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: PKs Disallowed For Shoota Boyz

This only strengthens my argument. I'm not disagreeing with the whole internet community about the literal interpretation on the shoota/pk rule; I'm pointing out that it's inconsistent with the rest of the book. Indeed, the word "replace" is used in 15 out of 21 unit entries, and in 14 of them there has been no confusion or argument. I haven't seen anyone make a good explanation why the wording is so subtle where in other areas of the codex they make very explicit restrictions (eg no Killakannons on elite battlewagons.)

You're quite right, Redbeard, we won't be getting an FAQ about this for some time, certainly not before the Eldar get theirs. But, if GW is so sloppy with the rules, wouldn't it make sense that they left this too ambiguous because of their decision to use "replace" for convenience? I would like to restate my point that this choice of wording ensures that a Nob with a PK in a shoota squad will not get the 2CCW extra attack, which is a very logical balancing point.

If we're not going to get any clarifications on this for months (or years), I don't think I'm going to play my games with the literal rulings from the people who you have said are so incompetent at making distinctions. I think I'm going to base my armylists off of the intent.
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