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Old 01 Nov 2007, 14:44   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default New Codex Stuff

So I found the PDF of the new ork codex (don't ask me where, if I can find it so can you).

Here's my initial observation: If the final codex is anything like this PDF, I'm considering selling my orks.


Well, here's why:

HQ Choices

As usual lately, 'special' characters seem better than the alternatives, and also unlock alternate army builds.

Warboss:
Cannot get a 3+ save anymore. So, unless you're tooled out and slow in mega-armour, your independent assault character, who can have attacks directed specifically at him, has at best, a 4+ save, and swings last if he wants to ignore armour saves.

So, in short, he sucks now.

Big Mek:
Ok, I think the powergame here is to take two meks with shokk attack guns, make sure they're not the closest target, and hit stuff with them, although, the cost of doing this is pretty high, and knowing my luck, he'd kill himself every game, so maybe not.

Weirdboy:
Oh yay, a psyker with Ld7. Like he's ever going to get anything off against a psychic hood, or eldar runes. Next!


Elites

Nobs:
Not much better or worse than before. Of course, before they were always just an awful point sink and not worth taking in any sort of competative environment, so ....

Burna boyz and Tankbustas and Lootas

What do these three units have in common? They're special weapons orks.
What else? Everyone in the squad has to have the special weapon. What else? They all pay for it - and they all have no armour. So, let's see - put the most threatening, expensive unit you have on the table, and watch as your opponent kills them all, without so much as a save. Can't buy any ablative wounds for these units.

Burnaboyz -would- be best used against power-armour foes, with a bunch of power weapon attacks. But, even with furious charge, they strike after the marines, who now all have bolt pistols and CCW, so don't expect much there.

Lootas get an average of 2 s7 hits for each three in the squad. Not bad - but considering they can't take a hit, while allowing 3+ save models their saves, and this unit will get removed from the board in a hurry. Consider the shooting exchange between a eight-man heavy bolter devastator squad and an equal number of points of lootas. And, to be sporting, we'll let the lootas fire first. (That's 11, for those keeping track at home).

11 lootas get 22 shots, land 7, cause 6 wounds, and two marines without the heavy bolters die. Maybe they break, maybe they don't - either way, they're marines, so they rally for free and get to shoot.
4 heavy bolters get 12 shots, land 8 and kill six lootas. Lootas roll Ld 6... but let's just assume they make it.
Five remaining lootas unleash 10 shots, hit with 3, causing three wounds, and one marine fails a save. Not 1/4, no Ld test needed.
The 4 heavy bolters fire again - oh look, there goes the loota squad. They didn't even drop the marines below scoring, let alone take out any of the heavy guns, and that was an equal points value.

Tank bustas - well, they've got rokkits, AP3 - they should do well against the marines?? No, they have to shoot at the rhino in the corner, even though it's obviously out of range. Who thought that rule up?

Kommandos
Not a bad unit. Get to start close, have better armour (hahahah) than they used to. And, oh, look, a special character upgrade that gives a pretty neat ability - although taking him gives up the ability to take a powerklaw nob.



Troops


Boyz
We get price cut. That's the plus. And, we can fit two more boyz per trukk. As a kult-of-speed player, that's the good side.

The bad: We lose choppas and Waagh, in exchange for... furious charge.
So, against weak stuff that we beat easily in combat before, like eldar, guard, tau, or gaunts, we're beating them easily. Against hard stuff that we had a rough time with before, like marines, we have an even harder time now. They swing before us. And, in all the newer marine codexes, their basic guy gets two attacks when charged, which means that, charging a 10-strong marine unit, we stand to lose 5 boyz before we swing. In a trukk-mounted unit, that leaves only seven left to swing back, against the full 3+ save of the marines.

Grots
These now serve no purpose. They no longer give a cover save to orks behind them, they cannot screen in 4th ed, and you cannot even give the slavers a powerklaw or rokkit to get any sort of decent attack out of the unit. Their only purpose, it would seem, is to run into minefields. You know, cause we see those in a lot of games...

Trukks
The new blow-up rules are neat. We take less casualties from a trukk dying, never get automatically entangled, and can, potentially, get closer to the enemy when the trukk dies. Not bad.

Big shootas are now the cheaper weapon option, riggers cost more, but aren't required, and armour plates are now just 'extra armour' not a save.

(It now costs double to get riggers and red paint over their previous costs)

Fast Attack
Stormboyz - cheaper than before. Look like they can be a good, solid threat.

Plus! A special character. Zagstruk isn't as good as he was before. You may look at say, oooh, a powerklaw that strikes at initiative. Well, on the first turn, so it's I4 - but still a powerklaw. But, you give up the potential for a powerklaw on a nob in subsequent turns - not sure that's good, as the subesquent turns are going to be pretty important if you don't win on the first, as all your boyz lose that furious charge.

I dunno about the deep-strike trick - you can assault the turn you deep strike, but assuming a mid-sized squad with zaggy, you're looking at a 200 point investment, trying to deep strike within six inches of your opponent - seems to me that that is asking for bad scatters.

War buggies
War trakks are now actually different than buggies - better at covering terrain. Shootas are now the cheapest weapon, not the most expensive, though a rokkit buggy with riggers comes in at 2 points cheaper than before. Skorcha buggies are now the most expensive, but still reasonable - though spikes&blades aren't available anymore.

War Bikes
The good:
They get choppa+slugga now, and furious charge, so they're as good as other boyz in assault.
Their price went down
They get a 4+ save, and 4+ cover save

The not-so-good:
Can't shoot when charging anymore.
Don't extend cover save to units behind you anymore.

Overall, a strongpoint.

Deffkoptas
The good:
They exist.
They got hit&run, and scout.
They can take a powerklaw - which also gives +1 attack, for having a powerklaw and choppa.
Can get rokkits, or megablastas (though, why anyone would take a megablasta is beyond me - it's only slightly more likely to hit an opponent as it is to overheat.

The bad:
Priced the same as before.
Lost a point of strength
Can't take a burna anymore.

Still - usable. Looks like the fast attack elements of this list are the strongest so far.

Heavy Support

This is where I am most disappointed...

Looted Tanks
Not yours. You cannot loot tanks anymore.

Instead, we get....

Looted Wagon

Yay, an open-topped rhino. You can stick a battlecannon on it if you want - although, a pretty crappy 36" range battlecannon. Though, with only armour 11, why you'ld put such a threatening gun on such a easy target is beyond me.

and

Battlewagon
Which has the potential to take an even shorter-ranged battlecannon...

Yes, we have lost all ability to take a long-range ordnance weapon like a looted russ or looted basilisk.

On the plus-side, the battlewagon can take a lot of guns, and other upgrades, and has a solid 14 front armour. One such upgrade is a death-roller, which inflicts strength 10(!!!) hits on things that it tank shocks, but somehow, doesn't ignore their armour saves, so don't expect it to kill much besides guardmen or kroot (or other orks).

Other heavy support choices include:
Killa kans and Deff Dreads
You get two cans for the price of one dread, and only slightly less armour, just like before. The kans have a new weapon option, but I'm not sure it's any better than the cheaper big shoota. Dreads, for some reason, cannot take this new gun.

Meh.

Flash Gitz
Here we have yet another attempt at the shooty ork unit. This one, at least, has a decent save, but, point-for-point, you might as well take a boyz mob with shootas. And, there's a special character for this unit too, priced in the 100-150 range (for a unit upgrade character...?!!?! )

Big Gunz
Kannons are the default. Lobbas are pretty-much unchanged. Zzap guns no longer get 2d6 for their penetration rolls, and no longer automatically hit, but, for some reason, are still the most expensive. They're also the only big gun that still kills its crew.



There you have it, the new "improved" codex. Some units look fairly competative, and I expect ork armies will heavily feature large units of basic boyz, stormboyz, bikers, and special characters.

For whatever talk that orks were not competative before, this codex seems to pigeon-hole you into playing with even fewer viable units than before. The new vehicle choices are completely uninspiring, tactically. The shooty units are just gift-points for a smart opponent who can make target priority tests.

I'm even less impressed with this than I was with the new Chaos dex.
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 15:29   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

I don`t know, I like the changes you`ve mentioned.

Quote:
Warboss:
Cannot get a 3+ save anymore.* So, unless you're tooled out and slow in mega-armour, your independent assault character, who can have attacks directed specifically at him, has at best, a 4+ save, and swings last if he wants to ignore armour saves.

So, in short, he sucks now.
Wot? You DO realize that those pesky 3+-saves are nuthing for an Ork? Im glad that GW is cutting back 3+ saves in Non-Marine races. Besides, this makes the Megaarmour the more tempting....

Quote:
Big Mek:
Ok, I think the powergame here is to take two meks with shokk attack guns, make sure they're not the closest target, and hit stuff with them, although, the cost of doing this is pretty high, and knowing my luck, he'd kill himself every game, so maybe not.
Then DON`T powergame. I don`t have the Dex yet, but there sure as hell are other uses for a mek than sticking a Shokk Attack Gun on him...

Quote:
Burna boyz and Tankbustas and Lootas
....
Lootas get an average of 2 s7 hits for each three in the squad.* Not bad - but considering they can't take a hit, while allowing 3+ save models their saves, and this unit will get removed from the board in a hurry.* Consider the shooting exchange between a eight-man heavy bolter devastator squad and an equal number of points of lootas.* * And, to be sporting, we'll let the lootas fire first.* (That's 11, for those keeping track at home).
Stop comparing single troops from different Codices to each other! On a battlefield, it`s not just "one unit vs. one unit", its "army vs. army". Sure, against MEQs Lootas might not be great, but what about horde? Light vehicles? And so on?

Quote:
Boyz
We get* price cut.* That's the plus.* And, we can fit two more boyz per trukk.* As a kult-of-speed player, that's the good side.

The bad:* We lose choppas and Waagh, in exchange for... furious charge.
So, against weak stuff that we beat easily in combat before, like eldar, guard, tau, or gaunts, we're beating them easily.* Against hard stuff that we had a rough time with before, like marines, we have an even harder time now.* They swing before us.* And, in all the newer marine codexes, their basic guy gets two attacks when charged, which means that, charging a 10-strong marine unit, we stand to lose 5 boyz before we swing.* In a trukk-mounted unit, that leaves only seven left to swing back, against the full 3+ save of the marines.
Don`t forget the Nob with Powerklaw.
Besides, the Shootas are better now, so you can soften up the humans now BEFORE you charge.
Furthermore, what do you expext? A Trukkload of Boyz comes in at 72 points. Against a full squad of Marines (150+ points), what do you expect?
(Besides, apart fromk striking last, on a charge, an Ork still has the same chance to kill a Marine than before with Choppas).
Quote:
Looted Wagon

Yay, an open-topped rhino.* You can stick a battlecannon on it if you want - although, a pretty crappy 36" range battlecannon.* Though, with only armour 11, why you'ld put such a threatening gun on such a easy target is beyond me.
36" range is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can move 7" (thanks to red paint job) and still fire your gun. Similar tactics to a Demolisher: Hide 1st turn, move and shoot second.

Quote:
Battlewagon
Which has the potential to take an even shorter-ranged battlecannon...

Yes, we have lost all ability to take a long-range ordnance weapon like a looted russ or looted basilisk.*

On the plus-side, the battlewagon can take a lot of guns, and other upgrades, and has a solid 14 front armour.* One such upgrade is a death-roller, which inflicts strength 10(!!!) hits on things that it tank shocks, but somehow, doesn't ignore their armour saves, so don't expect it to kill much besides guardmen or kroot (or other orks).
Why should you give a battlewagon which can transport loads of Orks into battle an ordnance weapon to begin with?!?!

Furthermore, waht do you expect from the Deathrolla? To auto-kill everything in its way?!?! You can instant-kill unlucky characters with it, roll over Avatars and Greater Demons! Quit whining!

Well, of course, from a power-gaming pov, the Dex is weaker. But that`s what the new GW Codices are all about - cutting back powergaming.

Besides, all the old Ork tactics are still possible, some of them are even improved.

Quit whining and powergaming, start using the new army.

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 15:43   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Thanks, Bonesaw... it makes me weep that people even try to powergame with the Ork list, which is (old/current Codex, at least) among the most balanced lists there are.

I won't bother re-covering all your counterpoints, but one other nitpick:

Quote:
They swing before us. And, in all the newer marine codexes, their basic guy gets two attacks when charged, which means that, charging a 10-strong marine unit, we stand to lose 5 boyz before we swing.
No, actually, they don't... where did you get that idea from?
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 16:14   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Maybe I should have stuck my disclaimer on this post:

If you want to play for fun, play for fun, take the models you like, and have fun. - I do that too often enough. But if that's what you want to do, stop reading here.

If you want to objectively examine the strengths and weaknesses of the new codex, keep reading.




However, you still missed the point:

First of all this codex can be powergamed as easily as any other. All codexes can be powergamed. The point is not about whether it can be powergamed, but, what the units that you'll see are.

Want to see a powergamed new ork army: How about 1500 points;

Mek w/ shokk attack gun
Mek w/ shokk attack gun
18 stormboyz + PK nob
18 stormboyz + PK nob
16 stormboyz + PK nob
20 boyz + pk nob + 2x rokkits
20 boyz + pk nob + 2x rokkits
20 boyz + pk nob + 2x rokkits

There you go, horde army at its finest. That's going to be competative against anything but a skimmer-heavy army. But, it's pretty one-dimensional.

See, if flash gits were priced right, you'd see them as often as you see boyz with shootas. If flash gitz are overpriced, you'll see more boyz with shootas. If flash gitz are underpriced, you'll see more flash gitz.

The complaint isn't that there's nothing worth playing in the new codex, it's that there are too many units that simply aren't worth taking compared to other units in the same codex. Why would you take nobs when you can take slugga boyz? Why take flash gitz when you can take shoota boyz? Well, because you like the models - but then, if that's how you're picking your units (And there's nothing wrong with that), you're not playing competatively, and this discussion isn't meant for you.


Secondly, you're playing a game where one army does line up against another. So, comparing how similarly equipped units do against each other IS a valid comparison. As is comparing new versus old. I have many many models built under the old rules. It's not bad to know how my army is going to have to adjust to new rules.


Quote:
Don`t forget the Nob with Powerklaw.
You should never assume that a nob with a powerklaw will get to swing in the first round of combat. Subsequent rounds, sure. First round - assume you'll be playing a competent opponent who will pull the right models to prevent your powerklaw swinging. I recently played a game against Yriel (eldar board mod), and not once did my powerklaws swing on the turn I charged.

Quote:
36" range is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can move 7" (thanks to red paint job) and still fire your gun. Similar tactics to a Demolisher: Hide 1st turn, move and shoot second.
36" range is horrible for a tank with 11 armour. It dies to heavy bolters, which conveniently share the same range. Demolisher tactics don't work, because it doesn't have the armour to pull it off against a good opponent. Demolishers are significantly better than Vindicators because of this armour difference. I've played many many games, often in tournaments, and I've NEVER had an opponent land a vindicator shot on me. Side armour of 11 is just too easy to take advantage of. Looted Wagons not only have a side of 11, they have a front of 11 too.

Quote:
Why should you give a battlewagon which can transport loads of Orks into battle an ordnance weapon to begin with?!?!
...
Besides, all the old Ork tactics are still possible, some of them are even improved.
Clearly, you don't understand tactics at all.

Ok, old ork tactic - take a leman, or a basilisk, sit back at 50" from opponent and shoot them, while advancing boyz or trukks behind cover.

Now, your opponent has to choose - do they sit back and let you shoot them with the long-range gun, or do they advance so their guns have the possibility to kill your tank, but risk the boyz assaulting them? You give your opponent two choices, neither of which are good, and they start making mistakes.

New codex: this tactic is NOT POSSIBLE. You don't have any threatening long-range weapons available, except perhaps the shokk attack gun (which has a 22% chance of misfiring).

So, no, not all the tactics from the old codex are possible. And I'm not whining, I'm stating a fact. We no longer have a good way to persuade our opponents to abandon their positions far-back in their deployment zone and engage. If we want to hit them with that sort of thing, we now have to close the distance with them.
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 16:22   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dra'Tuisich-Novae
Thanks, Bonesaw... it makes me weep that people even try to powergame with the Ork list, which is (old/current Codex, at least) among the most balanced lists there are.
You have no idea what balance is if you think orks are balanced.

Balance means that I can take different units from the same codex, pay about the same amount of points, and get the same result. Powergaming stems from inbalance in a codex, not balace. If a codex is balanced, then you can't powergame with it, because whatever you take is just as good, or bad, as whatever else you take. It is poorly written, badly designed codexes that lead to powergaming. It is the fact that one unit type is so much better than another that leads players to take many of the good unit and none of the bad unit.

Neither the old, nor the new ork codexes are balanced. Some choices in each version are just outright better than other choices in the same codex for the same amount of points.

And, why shouldn't ork players want a codex that is competative? Why shouldn't ork players want a codex with options? You make it sound like ork players should be happy with whatever tripe GW throws our way, and be ok with the idea that orks aren't an army you take if you want to play a competative game.

I disagree. I think that we should expect to be competative. I'm tired of seeing tournament results where marines, chaos, nids and eldar all take the top spots, and the two ork players end up at the bottom of the standings. Why should you weep because someone wants their army to stand a chance?



Quote:
I won't bother re-covering all your counterpoints, but one other nitpick:

Quote:
They swing before us. And, in all the newer marine codexes, their basic guy gets two attacks when charged, which means that, charging a 10-strong marine unit, we stand to lose 5 boyz before we swing.
No, actually, they don't... where did you get that idea from?
Your basic chaos marine comes with bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW. Bolt Pistol + CCW means he gets 2 attacks. I believe Dark Angels and Blood Angels got something similar.
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 17:42   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Quote:
Clearly, you don't understand tactics at all.
Quote:
You have no idea what balance is if you think orks are balanced.
You know, Ive been THIS close to flagging this post... >

But for the sake of argument, Ill try to answer your points as polite as possible, without insulting you.

Disclaimer: I play competitively. Always. I play to win. But for me, "playing" also includes "fun". I don`t use units I can`t stand. I don`t play people I can`t stand (unless I can`t avoid it - i.e. tournament situations). I don`t play rules-lawyer during the games.

Quote:
Neither the old, nor the new ork codexes are balanced. Some choices in each version are just outright better than other choices in the same codex for the same amount of points.
The amount of points don`t tell you the whole thing. FOC-placement, ability to take transports, weapon options, and a load of other different things play a role here, too.

Quote:
The complaint isn't that there's nothing worth playing in the new codex, it's that there are too many units that simply aren't worth taking compared to other units in the same codex. Why would you take nobs when you can take slugga boyz? Why take flash gitz when you can take shoota boyz? Well, because you like the models - but then, if that's how you're picking your units (And there's nothing wrong with that), you're not playing competatively, and this discussion isn't meant for you.
Because these units fill different niches. Nobs are one of the hardest CC unit in the game - I saw a unit of ten of them (sharing 20 wounds between them - 20!) tear through a whole DA army. I would take Nobs. I WILL take nobs!
Flash Gits will have their place, as will Shootas.

Quote:
Secondly, you're playing a game where one army does line up against another. So, comparing how similarly equipped units do against each other IS a valid comparison.
This is bullshit, because there is not such a thing as "universal points value". A specialised CC unit is not worth very much in a Nid army - there are LOADS of CC options. A specialised CC option in a Tau army would be worth much more. Therefore, just playing "Ork skwad A fights Marine Squad B, both of which cost the same amount of points" is completely useless for the sake of comparison. Besides, if the rumours about Lootas hold, they can be used against AV12 vehicles, as well - I`d like to see you try this with Heavy Bolters...

Quote:
Ok, old ork tactic - take a leman, or a basilisk, sit back at 50" from opponent and shoot them, while advancing boyz or trukks behind cover.

Now, your opponent has to choose - do they sit back and let you shoot them with the long-range gun, or do they advance so their guns have the possibility to kill your tank, but risk the boyz assaulting them? You give your opponent two choices, neither of which are good, and they start making mistakes.

New codex: this tactic is NOT POSSIBLE. You don't have any threatening long-range weapons available, except perhaps the shokk attack gun (which has a 22% chance of misfiring).

So, no, not all the tactics from the old codex are possible. And I'm not whining, I'm stating a fact. We no longer have a good way to persuade our opponents to abandon their positions far-back in their deployment zone and engage. If we want to hit them with that sort of thing, we now have to close the distance with them.
So, you`re ranting because you can`t use the old tactics anymore? You DO realise that change is what makes a game interesting? What about finding new tactics?
"The only constant in the universe is change, the wise adapt".
When old possibilties cease to exist, new are possible. Try to find them, instead of wasting your energie ranting, whining and insulting on these boards.

Besides, to be honest, long-range suppression fire by a Basilisk doesn`t sound very orky to me. Contrary, a short-range battlecannon DOES sound orky for me - after all, the Krew gets to see the explosions their gun causes!

Quote:
I disagree. I think that we should expect to be competative. I'm tired of seeing tournament results where marines, chaos, nids and eldar all take the top spots, and the two ork players end up at the bottom of the standings. Why should you weep because someone wants their army to stand a chance?
First: Marines win because there are more Marine players than anything else.
Second: The last Ork Dex is nearly a decade old. Wait for the changes the new Dex will bring to this statistic.
Three: You SHOULD realise that, just because the "numbers" tell you something different, an army doesn`t automatically have a disadvantage. DE, for example, never win tournaments where I live. Is it because they are weak? No. It is because no one plays them.

Who wins what tournament doesn`t tell you which army is better. It tells you which armies attended and which player had better control over their troops.

I repeat myself again: Stop whining, play the NEW Orks, find NEW tactics. The old Dex is 8 years old, for heavens sake! What were your expectations? That you could use your old tactics 1:1 for the new Dex? :

Cheers,
-Bone
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 17:48   #7 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Hmm... redbeard has really opened my eyes here. Especially the warboss - has the armoury really taken such a hit?? No rokkits? No Bionik bonces?

And what you have said about the specialist ork units (Tankbustas, Lootas, burnas) is particulary frightening. Tanbustas having to fire at tanks? Lootas being outshot and uncustomisable? (there goes the crisis ork conversion) And burna boyz being splattered before they can do anything? And then theres the fact that they should all be equipped with the special weapons. A massive points sink if you don't mind me thinking. And something that I won't be taking if true.

The boyz ive been upset about since I heard the rumours. For me the reason I take slugga boyz is because of the choppa being able to crack marine power armour. Take that away and we have to rely on an extra point of strength that we only get on the charge. Fun.

And yes - grots are now pointless. Totally and utterly pointless.

And then theres the flash gits - ive just bought and modelled 15 of these under the current codex. If they are now over-priced then I've wasted my money.

Ive lost my basilisk, my battlewagon feels kinda pointless and Ive lost all the fun in the army. Wheres my cutomisation? Wheres the squads of Cyborks or 'ard boyz that don't cost the earth? I want to be able to not have to take bags of rokkits with my tankbustas, and since when have loota boyz all taken exactly the same wargear as not only themselves but every other warband out there?

The only good thing that comes to mind is that I get to use deff koptas... Yippee.

No. Im not a powergamer. Im whining and complaining because the fun and flair of the army seems to have disappeared. If i want to make it useful iv'e got to take LOADS of boyz. And I don't want to do that.

And a codex shouldn't restrict you in such a way - I want to take the ordinary tankbustas we have now, with my 4 rokkit launchas and the tank hunting rule. What was wrong with that? It suited many ork players before, we had ablative wounds, re-rolling misses, and scaring tank players with our nice rule. And they were troops to boot! I was outraged when they were moved to the elites slot, now I'm outraged all over again that I can't take them as I want.

If you think Im being childish about it, just think of it this way - what would happen if space marine tactical squads were all forced to take melta guns and missile launchers?? Same thing is happening with our boys - we are loosing the individuality of our armies. My orks are going to startingly similar to the guy next to me. Our slugga boys are going to be in squads of 20+ because we can't bust armour anymore, our shoota boyz similary numbered because we need the special weapons to make them effective, the speciality orks are just going to be distant memories because we are in constant fear of all of those points are going to get shredded by the most basic enemy units and our looted vehicles are going to be gathering dust on the shelf simply because they are absolutely useless.

I thought the new codes was going to create an explosion of creativity on my modelling desk. But it seems that we have to play buckets of orks - theres just not enough scope to cover it.

And if this is true, ive lost my best loved army. Not because the codex was horribly out of date. Not because we only ever had one box of plastic troops. But because GW declared that I can't have fun anymore.

Cheers...
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 19:12   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

I found the old codex quite weak. I could read Elder, marines, tyranids and Tau and see different tactics and effective combinations using the codex.

I thought Orc boyz were over priced and very vulnerable. I thought it was unfair everyone else can feild troops in a troop carrier but not Orcs. They have to take em as FA. The jump troops were Elites etc

Marines have dreadnoughts as Elite, Tau have battlesuits, tyranids can take fexes and warriors as elite and elder elite can be put in a wave serpent. What do Orcs get...ever so slightly better boyz. On top of that these armies can still feild excellant fast and support troops.

Orcs need a boost. I had high hopes. I thought redbeard made some fair points. Wilst I play for fun it is nice to know you have a chance to win with your army.

As for the comment bout DE. Does no one play them cause they are no good?
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 19:18   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Nevermind, I don't want to get flagged for bashing.

Redbeard, I disagree on several points.

1. Warboss is a good character, t5 (6 on bike) is more valuable than you give credit for and more than makes up for the loss of a 3+ save.

2. Warpheads can use their unit size as their leadership. Far from failling all psychic tests and quailing before the psychic hood they laugh at such tests and are utterly immune to the hood.

3. Redo the comparison with the lootas putting both units in 4+ cover. Remember the cost disparity.

4. Nobs are great, they get an upgrade that makes them FNP, and they can use one of the new trukks.

5. The trukks are incredible, by far the best transport in the game, nothing is even close.

6. The HS vehicles are fine, 36inch range will still shoot anything in the game you want to starting on turn 1. They are supposed to drive forward firing their battlecannons and letting off boys. They can do that just fine.
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Old 01 Nov 2007, 19:45   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: New Codex Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by CmdrBonesaw
You know, Ive been THIS close to flagging this post... >

But for the sake of argument, Ill try to answer your points as polite as possible, without insulting you.
You might want to avoid words like 'ranting' and 'whining' if you want to avoid insulting someone. I posted my opinions on the new codex, and you made a personal attack, saying I was whining. I only return in-kind the attitude I receive from others. If you disagree with me, that's fine, keep it to the matter of hand. If you insist on calling me a whiner, I'll insist on calling you an idiot. But, in the spirit of not insulting one another, let's discuss the points...

Quote:
Disclaimer: I play competitively. Always. I play to win. But for me, "playing" also includes "fun". I don`t use units I can`t stand. I don`t play people I can`t stand (unless I can`t avoid it - i.e. tournament situations). I don`t play rules-lawyer during the games.
I don't rules-lawyer in games either, but I also play to win. I also play in one of the most competative regions of the US with other tournament calibre players.

Quote:
The amount of points don`t tell you the whole thing. FOC-placement, ability to take transports, weapon options, and a load of other different things play a role here, too.
Points tell you 9/10ths of things, when you compare similar units which you intend to fulfil similar roles on the battlefield. If you have a choice between one unit that can take 40 S4 shots, has 20 wounds and costs 120 points, and another that can take 5 S5 shots, has 5 wounds, and costs 125 points, which is better? There is very very little that the Flash git unit can do that the shoota boy unit cannot do. They cannot take a hit as well, they don't dish out the fire as well, they have a hard time holding objectives, they break easier. I guess you get 5 shots that might hurt a AV11 vehicle, but seriously, can't you see the difference in quality here?


Quote:
Because these units fill different niches. Nobs are one of the hardest CC unit in the game - I saw a unit of ten of them (sharing 20 wounds between them - 20!) tear through a whole DA army. I would take Nobs. I WILL take nobs!
Flash Gits will have their place, as will Shootas.
Yes, nobs can go through badly designed armies. But a powerfist would insta-kill more. For each basic nob, you could take three boyz. That's three wounds instead of two, that's three shots before charging instead of one, that's nine base-attacks instead of four, and that's twelve charging attacks instead of five.

A mob of boyz could go through the same dark angel army just as easily as a nob squad - for less points.



Quote:
So, you`re ranting because you can`t use the old tactics anymore? You DO realise that change is what makes a game interesting? What about finding new tactics?
No, I am not ranting because the old tactics don't work. I simply stated that as a direct refute to someone who said that all the old tactics still work. Ok, they don't. If someone says "all elephants are green" and I show them a grey elephant, that doesn't mean I'm ranting about elephants, I'm just proving them wrong.



P.S. - about Dark Eldar - no one plays them cause the models were awful, and GW pulled them off the shelves. They're not a forgiving army, but in the hands of a good player, they're extremely good. But, if you make a mistake, you get owned badly.
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