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Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???
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Old 08 Sep 2007, 18:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

After reading the suposeably confermed new rules for orks the loss of Mob rules The changing of power of the waaaaagh, no more living shield, no more choppas
I would like to ask my fellow orks a question how are These changes For better or worse

For ex: was Power of the Waaaaaaagh better represented by Ork doubleing iniative on the charge or furious charge and a single use fleet move that can hurt them.

-Was the Mobb rule better represented when orks with 12+ models igroned morale and mobbed with other boyz when they high tailed and ran or by becoming fearless when in mobs of 11+.

-Was the loss of the Grot living shield rule a big or small loss after all orks are much cheaper in the new dex so the point gap between them is much smaller now.

-How will the loss of Choppas affect the ork army is this is the loss of Beakie mashing worth a 3 point decrease

Opinions anyone?
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Old 08 Sep 2007, 20:03   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

I suppose I speak for more than myself when I say that I'm reserving judgement until I actually see the Codex for myself. It's still a good half-year till the release, there's a possibility that things may change or the information leaked was inaccurate. Nevertheless, my two teef on the situation:

Doing away with choppas I'm happy with - I've always loathed them because of their apparent inability to cut through a T-shirt with any more efficiency than a piece of fruit while somehow being powerful enough to tear huge chunks out of reinforced ceramite. I wish we couldn't gotten something that makes sense like a simple -1 to armour save but I suppose CCW was the best we could have hoped for and the 3pt decrease justifies it to some extent.

Once-per-game fleet plus furious charge is an adequate substitute for double Ini, I feel... can't argue with the Str bonus. I really would've preferred da boyz to get a base Ini increase, though. The furious charge bonuses aren't going to amount to much if all da ladz in base-to-base get mashed before even getting a swing in. Single use fleet would simply require a bit of tactical thinking - I believe that if timed right, it can catch your opponent off guard and really turn the tables in your favour, much like in Fantasy.

Loss of mob rule is a bit of an ouchie, but I'm not overly worried because they're still effectively Fearless in mobs of 12+, and with the pts decrease, you'll be able to get maxed mob for the same price as medium mobs previously, so they'll be just as hard to break as ever. Plus, if the rumours concerning the changes made to the bosspole are true, having one on every Nob will mean that your boyz will almost never run away. Better than having a mob count as destroyed by mobbing up, I say.

On the loss of Grot Living Shields... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!? Cover saves were the best part of having grot mobs. Without that, and now that boyz are cheaper, Grot mobz have just effectively became useless.

Overall, I think the new Codex will lead to a radical change in playing style, for me at least. Currently I focus on medium-sized Slugga mobz slowly advancing into combat under Grot cover, with maxed out rokkits and big shootas to soften up the enemy on the way. Under the new Codex, I think I would be tempted to use much more dakka - shoota boyz, Shokk Attack Gunz and the like - leaving the serious business of close combat to da Nobz and Dredz.
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Old 08 Sep 2007, 20:48   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Ork......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
For ex: was Power of the Waaaaaaagh better represented by Ork doubleing iniative on the charge or furious charge and a single use fleet move that can hurt them.

-How will the loss of Choppas affect the ork army is this is the loss of Beakie mashing worth a 3 point decrease

Opinions anyone?
I'm still reserving judgement. But I'm really liking the dropping of choppas for furious charge. Here's why. Against MEQ's with choppas, you're hitting even up 50% chance. You've only got a 33% chance to wound and they get a 50% chance of saving. With the current PoW you may or may not be hitting first depending on your mob size.
So for every 10 orks that charge, you're killing 3.5 MEQ's (maybe...if you get PoW and hit first).

Now, with Furious Charge, you're hitting 50% of the time, wounding 50% of the time, and they're loosing armor saves only 33% of the time. Basically it's the same stats. However, the advantage is that you're not wasting your choppa points on anything with a 4+ or worse armor save. Also, you always will have a lot more wounds with which to absorb things. Where a mob a 10 boyz killed 3.5 MEQ's before; you can now field a mob of 13 boyz for even more killing. Or you can save the points and buy one of the many cool guns Orks are getting.

While the loss of Choppas and Power of the Waaargh is tough...the trade off should be worth it. My biggest fear, however, is with the loss of Mobbing Up. That's a rule that has saved my green butt many times and I hate to lose it.
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Old 10 Sep 2007, 04:17   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Ork......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
After reading the suposeably confermed new rules for orks the loss of Mob rules The changing of power of the waaaaagh, no more living shield, no more choppas
I would like to ask my fellow orks a question how are These changes For better or worse

For ex: was Power of the Waaaaaaagh better represented by Ork doubleing iniative on the charge or furious charge and a single use fleet move that can hurt them.
Timing is going to be the key to using this. All your Mobz must be poised to strike as one for it to be effective. This means that you may need three or four smaller countercharge units behind your big mobz (talking about a Footslogger army list) to counter scouts, infiltrators or deep strike units. This is actually where a mob of little Shooty BS3 Grots may actually come in handy behind your Ork Mob.

Last thing you need is some infiltrating unit holding back your Boyz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Ork......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
-Was the[b
Mobb rule[/b] better represented when orks with 12+ models ignored morale and mobbed with other boyz when they high tailed and ran or by becoming fearless when in mobs of 11+.
I have not seen anything in the rumor mill about Mobbing up being eliminated. In regards to Mob Size checks it sounds very close to what we have currently. The new (rumored) rule appears to just recognize that a Mob made up of more than 11 Orks is going to automatically pass any morale check.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Ork......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
-Was the loss of the [b
Grot living shield rule[/b] a big or small loss after all orks are much cheaper in the new dex so the point gap between them is much smaller now.
Well, at the new rumored BS3, 30 Grot Blastas may actually do some good! In addition it appears (if posts on another board are to be believed) that a Slaver will be required for every ten Grots. So a Mob of 30 Grots now has three Slavers .....?

Give these three slavers Big Choppas (+2 str) and two of the new Attack Squigs (which purportedly will now add +1 attack for each Attack Squig) and you have a dozen Strength five attacks. This will even make a T7 Carnifex take notice after two or three turns.

A full Grot Mob like this will go from around 130 points to about 200, however.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy Ork......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZ
-How will the loss of [b
Choppas[/b] affect the ork army is this is the loss of Beakie mashing worth a 3 point decrease

Opinions anyone?
I'll swap a loss to my Marine Equivilent opponent of a 16% improvement in armour saves for 33% more Orks anytime!

Best Regards,
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Old 10 Sep 2007, 08:08   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVEATCH
This means that you may need three or four smaller countercharge units behind your big mobz (talking about a Footslogger army list) to counter scouts, infiltrators or deep strike units.

Last thing you need is some infiltrating unit holding back your Boyz.
Probably the reason for the (rumoured) introduction of Gitfindas - Orky auspexes - in the new Codex.
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Old 10 Sep 2007, 14:05   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

I'm with IVEATCH, good points.

I really don't see any bad changes, if rumors are to be believed, just differences. In the rumor list I have not seen one item that made me cringe, at least not when put up against other changes that balance it out.

I think the Grot change will be interesting. I always used Grots as a screen and then an assault tie up unit, as I'm sure most did. I never relied on the Living Shield rule because I always put a KFF on my frontlines anyway. Aside from the assault oriented Grot unit IVEATCH mentioned, you could alternatively go shooty and put some big shootas on those Slavers. You could have 30 Grots at BS3 and then 3 Slavers with 9 shots between them, that's not bad. Grots are just going from fodder to basically a unit all their own.
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Old 10 Sep 2007, 14:25   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

I'm going to wait and see. So far, the new codex rumours are pissing me off because of the loss of all the tanks I've looted. But, this seems to be the way of GW these days. I had a couple thousand points of chaos wiped away by the new chaos dex, so losing a couple thousand points of orks in their new codex shouldn't be a surprise.


Something to consider though:

Furious Charge vs. Waaagh + Choppa:

Initiative: on the turn you charge, assuming they haven't changed our base stats, with furious charge marines will strike first. With Waaagh, we strike simultaneously. Maybe the cheaper cost per boy will make up for this handful of losses.

On the charge: On the turn we charge, the +1S means that we're equally effective against MEQs (1/2 to wound, 1/3 fail saves, vs 1/3 wounding, 1/2 failing saves). Against weaker armoured troops, furious charge is better than a choppa. Against more heavily armoured troops, the choppa is obviously better.

After the charge/Stuck In: On the turn after the charge, we're all-around worse off. We don't have a choppa, and we don't have the strength boost anymore either.

What's that mean?
It means that a nob with a powerklaw is going to be EVEN MORE important, in every mob that plans to see combat, in order to ensure that we can win those later rounds. Like stikk bombas or bikers in the current codex, without a powerklaw, these units suffer in protracted combats with marines, and often the powerklaw is the only damage getting through.
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Old 11 Sep 2007, 20:42   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

Just pickup 6 attack squigs 2 weeks ago and I'm even more stoked about them now with what Iveatch said about them.
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Old 13 Sep 2007, 21:02   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

The rumored +1 attack per-squig is pretty nice. I imagine they'll either become 1 per-model or 2 at most, probably 1 though. Even if it were just 1 squig, imagine a Warboss on the charge now. He'd have his base 4 attacks, +1 for the charge, +1 for CCW, +1 for a squig, for a total of 7 attacks. Since he's charging, furious charge, he's now at Str6, if not using a PK, and I5 which will let him strike a Marine first. Hell, toss a PK on him, he won't swing first but he'll have 7 PK attacks when he does...that's tasty. Furious charge will even let a Nob, Big Mek, and Painboss strike at the same time as a Marine on the charge throwing around S5 attacks.

Big choppa rumored to give +2 strength. Take the above examples and give the Boss a big choppa, charging at S8 now and not striking last (at least rumor doesn't mention it), Nobz and the like will charge at S7.

I think all in all we're going to come out better with the rumored changes.
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Old 14 Sep 2007, 20:33   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ork special Rules Scraped and Simplified for Better or Worse???

I'm liking what I hear about the Big Choppa. +2 Str + not having to go last = happy Ork. Always thought it was a bit of a pity that such a fluffy, orky weapon ("Me'z got a big axe wot'z bigga dan yoo! Waaaagh!") was almost completely useless in the game. I've got a bunch of Nobz based off the WHFB Black Orcs with great weapons, maybe the day has come when I no longer have to explain that he's using a choppa and slugga instead of a 'uge choppa, dammit.
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