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Old 23 Mar 2010, 15:30   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,645
Default Experimental List

I've been tossing around a lot of ideas lately for a list. Lately I've been making lists that are low model count (for Orks), but fast and with 4+ armor saves (Deffkoptas, Warbikers, 'ard Boyz, etc), and have had pretty good luck with it. I wanted to expand on that a bit and make them even more resilient, enter Grotsnik. As the title suggests, this list is an experiment and I'm looking for ideas to improve it. Right now this list sits at 1,965 points and I'm aiming for 2k with it but I'm a bit stuck. Anyway, here's the experiment:

HQ
* Big Mek w/'eavy armor, cybork body, choppa and KFF = 95
* Mad Dok Grotsnik = 160

Elites
* Kommandos x 10 w/burnas x 2 + Snikrot (11 models total) = 215
* Meganobz x 3 w/cybork bodies, tl-shoota, kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkit + Battle wagon w/deffrolla, riggers, plates, big shoota (Grotsnik here) = 275

Troops
* Slugga Boyz x 11 w/big shoota x 1 + Nob w/'eavy armor, bosspole, PK + Trukk w/plank, ram, big shoota (Big Mek here) = 161
* Shoota Boyz x 12 + Nob w/'eavy armor, bosspole, big shoota + Trukk w/ram, big shoota = 137
* 'ard Boyz x 12 w/cybork bodies, big shoota x 1 + Nob w/cybork, bosspoke, PK + Trukk w/plank, ram, big shoota = 270
* Grots x 19 + Slaver = 67
* Deff Dread w/riggers, plates, DCCW x 3, skorcha x 1 = 110

Fast Attack
* Warbikers x 6 + Nob w/bosspole, big choppa = 170
* Deffkoptas x 3 cybork bodies, w/tl-rokkits x 3, buzzsaw x 1 = 175

Heavy Support
* Looted Wagon w/'ard case, plates, big shoota, boomgun = 130

I tried to use the cybork bodies sparingly and only where they seemed most useful, IE: Koptas, MANz, and 'ard Boyz. That's two units with a 4+/5+ and then a 2+/5+. General idea is Grots hold an objective, Dread protects them (probably), Kommandos outflank and the rest zooms up. I love Snikrot and the fear he puts into someone especially when combined with a speedy army. I tried spreading my threats around so Big Mek rides with regular Boyz in a Trukk, MANz in the BW, and 'ard Boyz in their own Trukk.
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Old 23 Mar 2010, 16:18   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Default Re: Experimental List

I don't suppose you like to invest in Kannons, do you?

Apparently you're the second person today to use Grotsnik's Cybork Body on the Deffkoptas.

Pretty killy to me, but I feel that 3 MANz is too small, but the idea is you have Grotsnik so it'll be Fearless, good thought on that.
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Old 23 Mar 2010, 16:34   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

Kannons are an option I'm considering.

In the entire list, having the MANz is the true experiment. I'm not really taking them to smash things, it's more of a scare tactic. Having fearless MANz with the 2+/5+ and FNP with Grotsnik is a threat even being small in size. That's why I tossed them in the BW, not so much to make sure they get there but the threat of knowing they very well may and then throw down 17 power klaw attacks on the charge. Really they'll be used as a support unit. I wanted to try it out and see what happens. If things just go poorly then I'll swap them for normal Nobz but I've been wanting to find a place for my MANz in my lists and this was one way. Need more MANz...
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Old 23 Mar 2010, 16:50   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

MANz can do it pretty well, 2+/5+ with FNP is a whole new way to scare people, even Termies aren't that durable.

Your MANz should take the highlight of the war. Why not proxy 5 MANz and see how it works?
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Old 23 Mar 2010, 17:21   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

True enough. I can certainly squeeze one more in by dropping a few small things, two may be trickier but possible. The trick with MANz is making them a complex unit, hence the kombi weapons listed, that way all 3 of those are unique. At some point I think you start taking diminishing returns on cost to value when the unit loses complexity.

EDIT: I think I should swap the cybork bodies from the 'ard Boyz to my normal Boyz. The 'ard Boyz have a 4+ armor save already. Giving normal Boyz the 5+ invulnerable save would, well give them a 5+ save but also give me a unit specifically for dealing with nasty power weapon units. I'd hate to throw 'ard Boyz with cyborks at a power weapon unit because with the invulnerable they're sitting at 15 points each. This way I have my 'ard Boyz for the likes of say Assault Marines and the invulnerable Boyz for say Termies or monstrous creatures.
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Old 24 Mar 2010, 23:26   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

Id like to know your reasoning for a big shoota in a slugga boy squad. To me, a slugga boy squad on a trukk should be moving as fast towards the enemy as possible, getting into assault in turn 2. With a big shoota, it wont be effective unless you either drive the trukk 6 inches, or refuse to run. Either way, unless you get really lucky, 3 shots at BS5 wont win you any battles.

Some suggestions?
Armour plates on your trukks. Otherwise your trukks are ALWAYS stunned at least from a penetrating hit.(open topped) so opponents just need to stun each trukk, and that delays most of your army. Not hard considering it can even be done by bolters (on a 3+ damage roll from a glancing hit) Yes it is expensive, but really the price of your boyz not reaching the line in time is far more.

What is your big mek doing btw? Is he riding in the wagon? If so, get rid of the heavy armour. His role in your army is to stay in the wagon and give it a 4+ cover save, as well as other vehicles within 6''. As long as that wagon is intact, his armour save wont be used, meaning that's 5 points stripped off.

Second, why the armour plates on the looted wagon? Wont it be shooting more than moving? A shaken result still wrecks a turn of his game in my opinion because he is a boomgun not a transport wagon, so spending 10 points there is most likely not going to win you any battles. Plus, a big shoota and a boomgun? Nomatter what you are shooting at, shoot the boomgun right? It hits more models (large blast) and is higher strength, higher AP and ordanance. You cant shoot boomgun AND big shoota in the same turn, and if you get a weapon destroyed result, your opponent would have to be a brain damaged squig to choose the big shoota instead of the boomgun. From then on, a wagon with a big shoota wont earn it's points back.

I;m not too keen on having shoota boyz in a trukk either, sluggas suit the role much better. If you wanted shootas shooting out of a vehicle, put em in a looted wagon. Same price as a trukk and you have 1 extra front and side armour. The fast vehicle part is irrelevant, as if you move over 6 inches you cant shoot the shoota boyz anyway.

Hopefully i have helped

Lord Zambia

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Old 25 Mar 2010, 02:19   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

I believe having a boomgun taken out doesn't make a tank less effective. I had occassions where I got mine taken out and I still managed to do some damage with big shoota by tank-shocking and such, so that's pretty optional, nothing to say that it's extremely disadvantageous.

I do agree on the shoota boyz in a looted wagon, they're much suited not in a trukk.
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Old 25 Mar 2010, 05:05   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

Lately I've been using shootas on all my trukk boyz. I owe three squads of each, but the shootas have outperformed the sluggaz just about everytime. Yes, if you want to shoot its no fast than a wagon, but the trukk doesn't take up a heavy slot, and will never be forced forward because of the "don't press dat" rule. Shootas are so versatile, I love them.

Thor I like your idea of making the regular boyz cybork instead of the ard boyz. That ard boyz squad was way too expensive and having a cheaper squad to deal with power weapons makes sense.

When I take a boomwagon all I give it is an ard case, and they do the job. While more MANZ would be nice a second boomwagon would be even better.
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Old 25 Mar 2010, 12:35   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Experimental List

Big shoota in Boyz units I swing either way on. That being said, look at it this way. I lose one attack on the charge but I gain 3 shots on the charge in. Odds are that 1 in 3 shots will hit and then I need 3's to wound most things and they'll get an armor save. Compare that to the extra attack which may land the hit but then needs 4's to wound most anything and they get armor saves. I'm not really losing out and am gaining a 36" range gun which can come in handy when you lose your ride. Sure, not going to alter the course of the game or anything, granted.

The Trukks don't have armor plates because of cost. For me putting reinforced rams on Trukks is mandatory, all my Trukks have them, and I've grown to love the boarding plank on any Trukk that has a PK wielding Nob in it. That's already a 45pt Trukk and plates would put it at 55pts. So, I rely on the KFF to keep them moving. My first turn is typically an 18" move anyway, so if I get stunned I can typically bail out, move, possibly call a Waaagh!, and be in charge range anyway.

Big Mek rides and sits in his ride. I give him the 'eavy armor because it's cheap and since he stays in the vehicle people shoot it down. When he has to take that explosion hit he has a 4+ to keep him going. There is the odd time I throw into a combat too, usually when things are looking bleak for me.

Plates on the Wagon were mostly because I had points and if it can't shoot then at least I can move it, which means I could tank shock or ram, or just hide the thing. Big shoota for two reasons. One so I have a weapon in case I lose the boomgun. Yeah, it won't make it points back without the boomgun but that doesn't meant I can't still chip away at something either. It's an inexpensive weapon. Two, it gets targeted a lot and having two guns means it's harder to outright remove, IE: weapon destroyed and immobilized results stacking.

You have to run Shoota Boyz in a Trukk to appreciate them. They're able to keep up with the Slugga Boyz and when the time to charge comes they sit in their Trukk and unleash the dakka, or they join in the fight and unleash dakka on the way in. I was adamantly against Shoota Boyz for the longest time riding around like that but then I tried it and realized it's a great fit. The Looted Wagon can't keep up with Trukks and takes a heavy slot to do it. It's a matter of synergy.

Anyway, I did try this list out last night with some changes. I did remove big shoota from Slugga Boyz and put cybork's on normal Slugga Boyz. I also added a MAN to that unit. The game was close, up against the new Blood Angels, but I did lose on the last turn. Grotsnik did make my MANz a chore to remove. They held up against a charge from a 10-man Death Company and 4 Assault Marines. I removed the Assault Marines, a few Death Company and then went down on my turn. My stars of the game, as always it seems, was my 'ard Boyz. They charged in, with the cyborked Sluggas, against Dante and Honor Guard. By the second turn of combat I wiped the unit out with 'ard Boyz as my Sluggas fled the scene.

It was an interesting list but I think I'll go back to my Speedmek list. I did like how the MANz played out but having to take 160pt HQ to make them feasible isn't ideal. I could have taken a Warboss and a unit of Kannons for the cost of Grotsnik and had more use. If you're dead set on taking MANz then I suggest Grotsnik for sure though.
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