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Res Orbs; help or hinderance?
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Old 04 Apr 2010, 03:48   #11 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?


Interesting discussion. I don't even take a Lord at all. I much prefer taking a Deceiver or Nightbringer. At 1500+ my Lord stays on the shelf. I also use a lot of Destroyers but it has not been that big an issue leaving the Lord out of my list. I just take a C'Tan and a Monolith and that seems to work fine backed up by a lot of destroyers, some warriors and one squad of immortals. I don't even take heavy destroyers until 2000 points.

Spo I would have to vote against the res orb.
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Old 06 Apr 2010, 18:28   #12 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xx

Interesting discussion. I don't even take a Lord at all. I much prefer taking a Deceiver or Nightbringer. At 1500+ my Lord stays on the shelf. I also use a lot of Destroyers but it has not been that big an issue leaving the Lord out of my list. I just take a C'Tan and a Monolith and that seems to work fine backed up by a lot of destroyers, some warriors and one squad of immortals. I don't even take heavy destroyers until 2000 points.

Spo I would have to vote against the res orb.
Sounds like your 1500 pt list consists of a C'Tan, a Monolith, 20 warriors, 10 Immortals, and ~7 Destroyers.

Am I far off base?

I'd hate to see what 2 vendettas would do to that list. Or a Hormagaunt horde.
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Old 07 Apr 2010, 02:41   #13 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

Actually I field eight destroyers and scarabs Vendettas get immobilized fast enough to gauss ... it is a two way street. Let the Hormagaunts try and catch the Destroyers or the Deceiver before they are shot down. I'm not saying it's a perfect army but it's worked well enough for the past four years. Of course the list works better at 1750 but meh, it is quite playable at 1500. Most of my Necrons now sit on the shelf .. I gave up on lots of scarabs, flayed ones, tomb spyders, res orb lords, flayed ones and wraiths below 2000 points. And even then I'm only adding a few Wraiths, some scarabs and a Destroyer Lord.

Here is the list for reference ... note I've dropped Immortals from my list recently for 1500 games.

~HQ~
Deceiver- 300

~Troop~

Warriors x11- 198
Warriors x11- 198

~Fast Attack~
Destroyers x4- 200
Destroyers x4- 200
Scarabs, Disruption Field x10- 160

~Heavy Support~
Monolith- 235

Points: 1491
KP: 7
Models: 42


No res orbs at all. I'm really not afraid of that much. Even with just the two troop slots I manage well enough if I'm careful. You would think my opponets would take out the Monolith and Deceiver very quickly as they are major targets but they survive longer than you may think. What is always a surprise is the scarab swarm. They have taken pout a lot of tanks. A turbo boosting 2+ save is so nice. And the Monolith does not go dpown that quickly usually. Yes, I've lost it to outflanking Vendettas once but then I should have DSed more wisely, no?

The truth is that we are fielding a list that was not made for 5ed. So
I do what I can to correct the weaknesses.

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Old 07 Apr 2010, 20:07   #14 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xx
Actually I field eight destroyers and scarabs Vendettas get immobilized fast enough to gauss ... it is a two way street. Let the Hormagaunts try and catch the Destroyers or the Deceiver before they are shot down. I'm not saying it's a perfect army but it's worked well enough for the past four years. Of course the list works better at 1750 but meh, it is quite playable at 1500. Most of my Necrons now sit on the shelf .. I gave up on lots of scarabs, flayed ones, tomb spyders, res orb lords, flayed ones and wraiths below 2000 points. And even then I'm only adding a few Wraiths, some scarabs and a Destroyer Lord.

Here is the list for reference ... note I've dropped Immortals from my list recently for 1500 games.

~HQ~
Deceiver- 300

~Troop~

Warriors x11- 198
Warriors x11- 198

~Fast Attack~
Destroyers x4- 200
Destroyers x4- 200
Scarabs, Disruption Field x10- 160

~Heavy Support~
Monolith- 235

Points: 1491
KP: 7
Models: 42


No res orbs at all. I'm really not afraid of that much. Even with just the two troop slots I manage well enough if I'm careful. You would think my opponets would take out the Monolith and Deceiver very quickly as they are major targets but they survive longer than you may think. What is always a surprise is the scarab swarm. They have taken pout a lot of tanks. A turbo boosting 2+ save is so nice. And the Monolith does not go dpown that quickly usually. Yes, I've lost it to outflanking Vendettas once but then I should have DSed more wisely, no?

The truth is that we are fielding a list that was not made for 5ed. So
I do what I can to correct the weaknesses.
It surprises me that you'd list the Monolith and the Deceiver as primary targets. I own a Deceiver, but have yet to actually use him due to his huge points sink and poor performance in my metagame.

We must have vastly different opinions of what it takes to make necrons viable. Then again, that's what makes the game good, right?
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Old 07 Apr 2010, 20:24   #15 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

The Deceiver is very strong and when in CC it kills almost everything, It is bloody amazing in 5th. It's the only thing in the Necron list that got better all around. Run, always hitting the back of tanks (auto pens AV10), able to induce pinning tests (while being immune themselves), and Grand illusion got better.it can also support your army with several abilities.The Deceiver's grand illusion can be used to get the opposing army to place his heavy support out of LoS only to have a unit of destroyers move and get a tank's side armour. The Deceiver can use the Deceive power to force a fall back or pinning test on any unit, even fearless ones. If played well, you don't need a babysitting lord + orb. Play your warriors very defensively in cover and and let them go to the ground for an extra +1 cover save. If anything comes close, teleport them through your Monolith for safety.The monolith can block view and against non-Tau has a really good chance at surviving.Your Destroyers are the heavy hitters of the list anyway. Kept close next to each other within 6" they can WBB in each others unit.

Thee is a general heavy reliance on troops in 5ed and this type od list seems to break the rules. Non-the-less it plays better now than in 4ed. I have currently five armies on the go ( I had nine) now that sold a few off. I'm going to keep my IG and probably my Edlar but I want only one more. So I'm choosing between my BA and SW which are made for 5ed, my Nids which have some nice new units especially the Tervigon or my Necrons which many would argue just suck in 5ed. I'm totally convinced.
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Old 08 Apr 2010, 02:46   #16 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

*Mod talk*
Right, you guys, try to keep the Topic on topic (res orbs, what are they good for? Say it again). Or feel free to start a new thread


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Old 08 Apr 2010, 07:05   #17 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

I'm currently going through the codices to figure out which armies can properly spam instant death shooting weapons with high fire rates or templates. Since this will take a bit there's a chance someone will post while I'm still writing this, so please forgive this post's possible interruption.

You can argue for it, but for the purposes of this list I won't be counting the potential to spam melta, lascannons, or krak missiles because of their low fire rate. Also I won't be paying attention to whether or not the army is speedy CC oriented since we've already determined that 'crons will be swept most of the time, and thus the RO doesn't help.

Chaos Daemons:
Soul Grinders upgraded with plegm I think are the only unit in this codex with a shooting attack that fulfills my criteria. Everything else is a single shot weapon like those I listed above.

Chaos Space Marines:
Only their heavy support (vindicators and defilers) as well as noise marines fulfill my criteria for S8+ blast weapons. If I'm correct the blastmaster the noise marines can get is only a small blast, so not quite as dangerous as the vehicle options.

Daemonhunters:
Only two of their orbital bombardments fulfill my criteria.

Dark Eldar:
Nothing. Only dark lances and blasters.

Eldar:
The focused prism cannon on the fire prism, the pulse laser, and wraithcannons. So once again only heavy support options and elite/troops.

Imperial Guard:
This is the codex to take a RO for. As with the previous codices the heavy support section possesses lots of S8+ pain, but unlike the others their S8+ can squadron (meaning more than just three tanks worth of S8+ template doom). They also have demolition charges (I don't know if anything other than Marbo can take them) and their fast attack also has a few options (again squadron-able) for S8+ template/rate of fire spam. They are also better at spamming the single shot things than most other races.

Necrons:
Just the Monolith. The only other options are heavy destroyers and the Nightbringer, but those are only single shot weapons.

Orks: (this codex sucks for finding this stuff!)
Wazdakka Gutsmek's dakkacannon, looted wagons with boomguns, (potentially) the shokk attack gun. So here we again see heavy support tanks (well, just one tank) and two HQ options.

Tau:
Oddly enough... nothing.

Witch Hunters:
Like the Daemonhunters there are two orbital bombardment options, and potentially exorcists.

Yes there are codices missing from my list (most notably vanilla marines), but that's because I either don't have access to the codex or I don't have access to the newest version of the codex.

What I learned from this is that really the only army we truly need a RO for in the shooting phase is Imperial Guard. Everyone else for the most part can only get three tanks worth of 'cron killing power, and we should be able to glance those to at least prevent them from firing. So unless the list is tailored to killing 'crons I really don't see the necessity in the RO anymore.

Again, if you disagree with me please reeducate me on what I'm missing (also point out any errors with my above list, or add to it if you have the materials I don't).

--Quick edit: I also realized that I was just looking for S8 minimum weapons, so if most of what I listed is S8 or 9 then I see great potential in fielding Immortal heavier lists because they'll be immune to the S8/9 spam. But much of what I listed might be S10 (can't recall immediately a good ratio), in which case they wouldn't be as useful for preventing phase out. Just more food for thought, even if it isn't exactly about the ResOrb.
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Old 09 Apr 2010, 02:06   #18 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

That is a fantastic analysis. One of the things I've noticed as well with my games. Ordinance is the biggest threat to ignoring WBB, hands down. However, if your opponents bring just one piece of it, then there is absolutely no worry. The orbs main use is when your in combat. One of the reasons I've been taking it on lords is to ensure my own WBB, letting my warriors get back up too is merely a nice bonus. In the last few games I've played, the Orb has been used very few times, and when I do use it it's always for one shot weapons.

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Old 09 Apr 2010, 02:56   #19 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Res Orbs; help or hinderance?

I'm glad the effort was appreciated.

Because the RO sees the most heavy use in CC, and warriors generally don't survive CC I think my future lists will find the RO with a home in wraith and flayed one heavy lists as opposed to warrior/immortal or destroyer heavy lists.

Another consideration is that the RO actually gets more useful in higher point games, as this is when more and more of those things that can cause ID with shooting pop up (again, especially with Imp Guard).

I don't really see the need for an RO just to keep the lord himself going when a footlord is often tucked into a warrior or immortal squad, and thus can't be picked out by ID weaponry in the shooting phase, and since (if I'm getting the rules right) will fall to the same sweeping advance as the rest of the unit. Instead I'd rather use those points elsewhere in the list, or to pack the footlord with more utility wargear like the nightmare shroud or gaze of flame (oddly enough the chronometron creates a footlord where CC might not be as much of an issue and the RO can be useful again).

--Edit below:

So I quickly went back through the codices I mentioned above to find out which armies possessed S10 weapons that fulfill my criteria of blast/high rate of fire in order to determine whether or not more bodies (warriors) or harder bodies (immortals) are better for preventing phase out. Again, my results can be found below:

Chaos Daemons:
Nothing

Chaos Space Marines:
Just the demolisher cannon.

Daemonhunters:
Just the lance strike.

Dark Eldar:
Even more nothing than before.

Eldar:
Nothing.

Imperial Guard:
Unlike before their options are now tied down to only the heavy support slot, with one of these options only being a single use weapon (deathstrike missile), and the one that gets the most coverage (with the use of just one vehicle) doesn't beat our armor save (storm eagle rockets). This means only the Demolisher variant of the lehman russ, the basilisk, and the medusa are the things we need to fear. Unfortunately those are also the vehicles that can squadron. A key note here though, is that squadroned vehicles can be destroyed with gauss fire (glancing hits). Again it looks like the codex to fear is Imperial Guard (as long as they take the big guns).

Necrons:
Nothing.

Orks: (this codex sucks for finding this stuff!)
Just the shokk attack gun (potentially). This means there should only ever be at max two things on the field that can maybe do mass S10+ shots.

Tau:
Nothing again.

Witch Hunters:
Now just like the daemonhunters with just the lance strike.

This extra analysis really does tell me that at least as far as the armies I have access to are concerned Immortals are better than Warriors for resisting phase out. Not only is it harder to wound them, but the weapons that can prevent WBB are also much rarer. I'd have to read tacticas on each of the armies, but just blindly guessing I think we don't have to fear S10 weapons really showing up in lower point games unless we're fighting Imp Guard. As we scale up I think while the risk of finding S10 weapons increases in the other armies, it might just not be viable for them to use up all of their heavy support slots on those guns, and thus we will continue to be able to not fear the S10 gun from anyone but Imp Guard. In this case I think if we load up on Immortals instead of Warriors this will further reduce the need for a RO. This will however, almost require that Immortal squads are larger than minimum size so that single fire S10 weapons won't become a large threat like they are against Destroyers.

Just more food for thought on my not-quite-so-spare time. Once again I'm open to a dissenting opinion/correction since I don't have access to every codex, and don't know what units to expect my opponents to bring since I haven't read up on every army's common tactics. I also apologize if it seems like I'm replying/talking too much. I'm kind of using this board as a method of procrastination.


---New Edit. I just realized that WBB doesn't state that shooting that causes ID prevents WBB, but instead shooting that has double T in strength. This means that the Eldar wraithcannon doesn't actually prevent WBB since it causes ID, but isn't double strength. This could possibly be debated, but I think I interpreted correctly. If this is the case, as I amended above, then the Eldar have nothing to deny WBB to our T5 models.
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Old 13 Oct 2010, 12:19   #20 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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To be honest when I first started making lists any battle below 2000pts I didn't have one, but I have never ever had a battle since where it didn't make a difference, but I spend most of my time fighting marines, which definitely had enough high strength weapons and lightning claws to warrant it. Then again I tended to use warriors. In the last battle I used 5 man immortal squad with my lord and they knocked em' all down with a mass attack, but 10 man squads would be much more resistant and running 2 squads at above 1000pnts would help with a tomb spyder would deal with that.

Orks regardless it didn't help because my units were spread to thin and they get so many attacks they died anyway. Gameover turn 3 sigh.

Last edited by Stanleyguy101; 13 Oct 2010 at 16:11.
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