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which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith
View Poll Results: which is better, nightbringer, deceiver or monolith
Nightbringer 5 8.77%
Deceiver 6 10.53%
Monolith 46 80.70%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13 Feb 2010, 10:28   #11 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiveFleetGoliath
Picture this.
Abaddon, 4 Terminators with twin LCs, and a Daemonprince assault a Deceiver. Deceiver kills the prince. Abaddon does 2 wounds. Next turn. Deceiver killed Abaddon and the Terminators. Then, he proceeds to kill 15 Khorne Berserkers. Only taking 2 wounds.
are we talking above 2K pointage ?

pardon me for saying this but the CSM player appears to be a noob. I would never ever assault a Ctan. It seems that the CSM player have everything at his disposal to phase out the Necrons with 4CSM chosen termies with TLCs, demonprince and Abaddie the bad dyi boss? I've phased out Necrons with less, only Kharn and a few zerkers .

Everyone will agree here, against a necron with CTan and Monolith, armed with a very CC oriented CSM, at 2K points below, it's darn easy to phase out Necrons (they are down to 1.4K pts necrons phaseout is around 300-350pts). With the leadership and fallback rules it gets quicker.

have you actually seen a Necron teleporting between 2 Liths and abuse the 'hospital' rule ? ain't a pretty sight, ain't fun either.

Now I would like to see how REAL necron veteran players view this issue.

Given 2K below pointage against an all-comer list (you don't know what your opponents list):
(1) would you take a Lith, Deceiver or NightB ? (only 1)
(2) would you take a combination of Lith and Ctan or both Liths ? (only 2)
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Old 14 Feb 2010, 00:53   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Quote:
Now I would like to see how REAL necron veteran players view this issue.
Wow. Thats insulting. I have put in my 2 cents and I get insulted? I think you all need to realize that Monoliths should not be compared to Ctan. They are the exact opposite from each other. That being said, if you take a Ctan, you better take a Monolith or it will get shot to hell. Also, unless you're tailoring a list, there is no reason for a Nightbringer. The Deciever is better against 90% of armies, and for tournaments always take it if you plan on taking a Ctan. Redeploying is awesome. Pinning Carnifex's is awesome.

Now, I will say something that you will probably flame me for. Pariahs. Take a unit of 4, hide them with a Deciever behind a monolith. You have no idea how effective this is. Anything and everything will fall before you and your awesome LD abusing power.
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shtlk, I honestly editted instead of posting a reply with a quote. Sorry, Goliath. Trying to figure out these mod abilities.
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Old 14 Feb 2010, 16:12   #13 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

there is no insult intended.
the statement only implies that i want to hear viewpoints from vet Necron players who joins sanctioned geedub tourneys. We can field all sort of 'experimental' list for casual or friendly games, but only few fields an unproven list come tourney time.

which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

unless I'm reading it wrong the TS wants to know if given a choice in his list which would he pick. We are discussing how Lith and Ctan fit in competitive environment, not comparing them pound-for-pound.

+++++

Now, I will say something that you will probably flame me for. Pariahs. Take a unit of 4, hide them with a Deciever behind a monolith. You have no idea how effective this is. Anything and everything will fall before you and your awesome LD abusing power.

No need to flame over trivial things.
CTan, Lith and Pariahs are non-'necrons'. At 2K pointage (or Perturabo forbid 1.5K pointage) you already spent 40%-50% on non 'necron' units. It takes very little to phase out at that points.

i guess 3x defilers, 3x vindicators, 3x leman Russes/basilisks, farseer with dark reapers, Broadside spam are a rare config in that area. Ever asked what happens if that Lith goes down ? Or how can 1.7K points of necrons hide in 1 Lith?

There are 2 things why funky list doesn't get into the winner's bracket (1) it's a one trick pony and (2) it only looks good on paper - if you add terrains, missions and objectives of the actual tourney, it crumbles.
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Old 15 Feb 2010, 04:34   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Necrons are already easy to phase out. Whether you take "Necrons" or not, if your opponent has looked at any sort of tactica for fighting Necrons, best bet you will loose.

Now, I took Necrons to BoLScon '09 and placed in the top half (One place above Droids_Rule) and I used 4 Pariahs, a Monolith, Deceiver, 33 Warriors, 6 Heavy Destroyers, and 10 immortals. I used the Heavy Destroyers to pop things like Defilers and Vindicators before they wrecked too much havoc, and rapidfired most thing to death. It worked a lot better than I fought. I managed to keep my Warriors in cover, and basically did the opposite of Phalanxing. I sent my Deceiver and Pariahs at the enemy, and stayed back in my deployment zone, and made them come to me. The Destroyers demolished all light armor, and Mech lists ended up having to footslog. You'd be surprised how many people will charge into cover without frags, and realize that Necrons are essentially really slow marines, and ended up loosing combat. If you take your army, and plant it somewhere, you can hold that ground for a LONG time.
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Hopefully, my country's customs don't mistake the Genestealer model as being totally made out of cocaine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boneguard
At least a 5th one, so you can launch a legal squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule
shtlk, I honestly editted instead of posting a reply with a quote. Sorry, Goliath. Trying to figure out these mod abilities.
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Old 15 Feb 2010, 10:40   #15 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

You can't really compare the threee. The C'Tan are situational and the Monolith isn't but does a majorly different role.

The Nightbringger is if you neeed a big CC sledge hammer to pound on the enemy in close combatt.
The deciever is excellent in his special rules when fielded correctly his abilities make him deadly and he still has lots of CC goodness.

The monolith is extremely different as it has a support element in teleporting and a second chance at WBB, while also having the option to chose the very powerful template to wipe out units.

If i had to choose though I would pick up the monolith first as it is much better value than the C'tan.
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Old 16 Feb 2010, 00:16   #16 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

In 4th or 3rd... it would be a toss up between C'tan or Mono.

In 5th, the monolith got EVEN harder to kill. Even the railgun is no more likely than it use to be. And with so many armies spamming meltas and plasma it has less to fear.

The one great thing about a C'tan in 5th... its good in hth which the crons need to keep cc armies from running them off the board.

I would say a more static footslogging army... which is probably going to do poorly in 5th would be better with the C'tan(save them from HtH), and faster armies would benefit more from the lith.

Quote:
Abaddon, 4 Terminators with twin LCs, and a Daemonprince assault a Deceiver. Deceiver kills the prince. Abaddon does 2 wounds. Next turn. Deceiver killed Abaddon and the Terminators. Then, he proceeds to kill 15 Khorne Berserkers. Only taking 2 wounds.
This was pretty bad for the CSM player. Abby, terminators, and a prince are the last things I would send near a C'tan. Cheap CSMs packing a PF and a couple meltas I would probably send. Sure they will die, but they will hold it up for a little while possibly taking a wound or two off and they are still a lot cheaper.

Quote:
Now, I took Necrons to BoLScon '09 and placed in the top half (One place above Droids_Rule) and I used 4 Pariahs, a Monolith, Deceiver, 33 Warriors, 6 Heavy Destroyers, and 10 immortals. I used the Heavy Destroyers to pop things like Defilers and Vindicators before they wrecked too much havoc, and rapidfired most thing to death. It worked a lot better than I fought. I managed to keep my Warriors in cover, and basically did the opposite of Phalanxing. I sent my Deceiver and Pariahs at the enemy, and stayed back in my deployment zone, and made them come to me. The Destroyers demolished all light armor, and Mech lists ended up having to footslog. You'd be surprised how many people will charge into cover without frags, and realize that Necrons are essentially really slow marines, and ended up loosing combat. If you take your army, and plant it somewhere, you can hold that ground for a LONG time.
Honestly I didn't expect it would do that well. Good job. I wasn't going to write it off, even if they are not necrons the Deceiver and a Mono are good units if the rest of the army are necrons. Glad to hear it went so well .

I wouldn't expect that to work on every list though. CSMs come standard with frag grenades and they have more attacks than SMs or Necron warriors so cover is not going to help much.

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Old 17 Feb 2010, 01:29   #17 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

In the CSM players defense, it was either charge or get charged. He had just charged me with some of those lesser daemons, and I zoomed off 11 inches towards them (Gotta love those special rules).

If you are playing CSM, or SM, or anything with frags, this isn't going to work, but lots of units DON'T have frags. Even close combat ones. Nids (Genestealers are a big one), Daemons, etc.
[hr]
I didn't expect to do well either. Its just not... expected. People didn't know if they should shoot the Deceiver, Pariahs, or Warriors, and generally bad target priority. I phased out only 3 times, which is REALLY good.
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VS Droids: W24/L24/T10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenai
Hopefully, my country's customs don't mistake the Genestealer model as being totally made out of cocaine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boneguard
At least a 5th one, so you can launch a legal squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule
shtlk, I honestly editted instead of posting a reply with a quote. Sorry, Goliath. Trying to figure out these mod abilities.
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 16:02   #18 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Against nids the night bringer would be a huge waste of points and here is why. The new nid codex gives almost the whole army poison attacks. I'll show you what will happen if the nightbringer fought homogaunts with toxin sacs.

For 8 pts a model I'll get 3 attacks on a charge re-rolling ones and wounding on 4's. I'll use 20 gaunts for the example hitting around 160pts for the squad.

1. Gaunts attack with 60 attacks while going at same time with nightbringer swinging back with 5 attacks.

2. Gaunts will hit with 30 hits. They will re-roll 10 ones that will bring them up to 35 hits. While for favor for the bringer I'll say the nightbringer would hit 4 times.

3. Favoring the bringer I'll say the gaunts would put 17 wounds on the bringer. While the nightbringer would wound 4.

4. Favoring the bringer again he will receive 8 wounds which really woud be closer to 9 killing the bringer. While the nightbringer would only kill 4.

So a unit 1/2 the amount of points would kill the nightbringer almost all the time with a cheap upgrade. Now here is what woul happen with 10 homogaunts hitting at 80 pts with a tyrant giving them preffered enemy. Which would be 105 pts but if effects all units in range.

1. 10 gaunts will receive 30 attacks on a charge hiting with 15 attacks. Due to preferred enemy those 15 misses will get re-rolled witch will be 7.5 hits. Which will bring the hits to 22.5.

2. Since they wound on 4+ they will inflict 11.25 wounds on a nightbringer.

3. The nightbringer with a 4+ save will fail 5 wounds with .63 to spare almost putting 6 wounds on him which will still kill the nightbringer.

So nids with just a 80pt squad 1/4 less than the nightbringer would kill him on average.

While the monolith would be hard for the nids to destroy for less points than a nightbringer.
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 19:54   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Against nids the night bringer would be a huge waste of points and here is why.
That's entirely the point, both C'tan and the monolith are dependent on the situation. Against Tyranids why would you want the Nightbringer like you said. Another example would be taking a monolith against a Deathwing army, besides increasing the lifespan of your warriors there really isn't much benefit. Orks, Eldar, Space Marines etc, there is no one model to rule them all, there is only "X works good against Y but not against Z".

So if you personally like the monolith better than both C'tan go use the monolith. If you feel a C'tan would better suit your needs then that's what you should use, but regardless of what anyone says the monolith does not trump the C'tan every time and neither vise versa.
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Old 17 Feb 2010, 20:26   #20 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: which is better: nightbringer, deceiver or monolith

Actually, you can push Gants around (And off the edge) with the Nightbringer, as they are unmodified S3.
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Hopefully, my country's customs don't mistake the Genestealer model as being totally made out of cocaine...
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At least a 5th one, so you can launch a legal squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droids_Rule
shtlk, I honestly editted instead of posting a reply with a quote. Sorry, Goliath. Trying to figure out these mod abilities.
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