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Convince me....
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 17:10   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Convince me....

I get that warriors, destroyers, immortals, scarabs, Lords, and monoliths great. But as far as the rest... I have my doubts.

Wraiths: I think they look awesome. 6 str, 3 attacks, 6 int, not bad. Also jetbikes... very fast. The 3+ inv, great.... but the 1 wound, 3 models max, and not power weapons for 41 pts. It could be 3 stupid pot shots at this squad and its gone. Plus you can tie up a squad and watch the wraiths get messed up. 9 attacks just does not seem that reliable per turn for me to drop 123 pts on guys. Power weapons or rending in the next codex would make em more worth while... but util then... convince me why they are good!

Tomb Spyders: 55 pts for a MC isnt bad. Kinda like our own mini "Fex". Very cheap, 3 attacks. Plus the Spyder rule. I thought about using 1 Spyder to every 2 squads of warriors. To be CC support for em, and to use the extra rez special. But no Necron rule, and not many attacks just kinda makes em look like a point sink. Convince me....

Pariahs: Im sorry, I dont think anyone can justify this. You pay more pts. for these guys to get a warscythe, and do not get WBB. SUCK. If they had WBB, maybe. In the new codex, WBB, more CC attacks... anything can make them better. On this one, you can try to convince me... but I doubt it.

Flayed ones: Why would I want to go to CC with these guys. 18 pts for 1 model vs 18 pts for a warrior model. I get 1 more attack in CC with the disadvantage that I dont get any shooting from them. I can shoot every turn with the warriors and only have 1 less attack in CC. Flayed ones? Really? I guess I can Infiltrate... which would be okay... I guess. Here again, needs more attacks in CC, or rending to make them a viable option. Even lowering the pt cost might do the trick. Convince me...

Heavy Destroyers: 65 pts for a lascannon shot. Thats it, in a squad of 3, Im wasting 195 pts on 3 shots. And these shots have a good chance of missing. 2 out of 3 will hit. If im paying 65 pts for a lascannon shot... it better freaking hit. Not to mention the great chance they have to die... I mean, 1 wound? Either they need to be cheaper, more wounds, or at least TL. I mean, seriously. Its the only anti tank we have atm. I dont even use them. I rely on stunning the shiz outta the tanks rather than blow them up because these guys dont seem relaible at all. 200 pts for an unreliable squad seems worthless. Convince me...

I can somewhat see the uses in Wraiths, Tomb Spyders and Flayed ones. But Pariahs and Heavy Destroyers, no effing way. Explain it please!
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 18:43   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

As for wraiths they are ok if they jump from cover to cover but otherwise can be points gone bad. As for pariahs they are a good counter assault squad that is usually put along with the lord to keep him alive, the scythes are great for the slaughter. Don't care that much for the tomb spyders and the heavy destroyer is just over priced for what it does. As for the flayed ones they are good at outflanking and takng out priority targets who hide in the back. Give them disruptor field and they can take out vehicles like artillary or long range ones like hammerhead or even defilers.
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 18:47   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

I agree on everything but the tomb spyders. I normally keep one by my destroyers squad(s) to give WBB. Cause one str10 ord will wipe the squad, butwith the 12 inch repair rule, its all golden. Also for heavy destroyers, which i personally dont take, i guess can be good, but for 195 points thats a big gamble. Only time i used them was when i played a nidzilla list which allowed me to destroy them. But making an allcomers/tourny list, heavy Destroyers are a complete waste
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 19:16   #4 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

I am dedicated to the Heavy Destroyers. I have used them in all my games 1000pts and (when I get there) above. I use two as separate squads, and they have been crucial in getting flank shots on enemy armour, or taking out transports and things I don't want to waste an entire destroyer squad on. They are moderately more expensive, but they are the most reliable way of killing armour at range. Granted, once all enemy armour is dead, they are little more then fodder. I hope to have two two man units for my 1500pts and above.

I am also building up two Tomb Spiders for my force. I have played a few games, where I have lost entire warrior squads, or other units when I had other units on the board. Tomb Spiders are relatively cheap (for what they are) and will help ensure that you can spread out your dudes without them dying as easily. Also, they can make good walking cover for the warriors and a tar pit unit as well. I don't really expect them to do much on their own, but they can defiantly help in babysitting my warrior units.

The other units you mention are pretty crap. Though, I can see outflanking flayed ones being pretty good at tying up enemy armour, or shaking battle tanks with D-Fields. I wouldn't expect them to kill anything, but a unit of flayed ones can hold up a devastator squad (or similar) and prevent them from shooting your destroyers.

I have only used Heavy Destroyers so far from the list, in my own games. I would never take a unit of three though. Good to keep a small number of them spread out, rather then all clumped into one. makes it harder to take 'em out too. I regard the Monolith as a waste of points, so I have pleanty of slots for TombSpyders and Heavy-D's.
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 19:48   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

Ok, to be more specific... the lists I build are always take all comers.

Heavy Destroyers- I still dont get it. They are completely dedicated to tank killing and MC killers. But when I fight a swarm, they do nothing. I only say this because although guass weapons got humped in the new edition, they can still jack up your oponent. Immobilization, not shooting, weapons gone... a basic warrior can do this. If I take 3 shots at a Land Raider with the HDs, 2 will hit (.666 chance), and from the start it has a .222 chance of glancing and a .111 chance to pen. Leaving a .055 chance to destroy. A 5% chance to kill a land raider is garbage to drop 200 pts in. For that same price, that gets me 11 warriors. At rapid fire range, i get 22 shots off. 2/3rds hit (14.65) and 2.44 of the hits will result in a 6. Lets say we roll a high and a low on the glancings. I would still possibly prevent the land raider from moving and shooting. Statistically proven that 11 warriors every time will prevent the Land Raider from doing something... while 1 in 20 turns would a squad of HD kill it. So if HD are focused on killing tanks, its a very low chance to kill em. So why even try? I might as well just keep stunning it, imobilizing them, destroying weapons... this is about the best shot we have at doing anything to a tank. The logic to take HD is to kill. With a 5% chance to kill a LR, not a good option. We might as well take 200 pts in something else, and just avoid those things. Or just punch em to death with guass and get lucky with immobilize and all weapons destroyeed.

Flayed ones: What has been brought up thus far is basically what I had in mind too. I would infiltrate and possibly tie someone up early. But isnt that what scarabs are for? Jetbike 24" and have a wicked cover save. Not to mention the 3 wounds. Very effective against marine or Eldar. What happens when I face off on a Ork or Nid player... now what do these Flayed ones do?

Tomb Spyders: I think this is one unit that didnt take much to convince me. I was just basically trying to get a general consensus on these guys. They are reletivly cheap for what they do. The MC effect for 55 pts. Decent attacks and what not. They would fair well against most armys too. Lock up something with a T6 MC can be dirty.

Pariahs: You didnt really try very hrd to convince me here. Pay 8 pts more (vs. an Immortal) to not WBB. Wow... tempting. Sure you get a warscythe. But what good Cron player doenst VoD his Immortals out of CC. I dont expect Immortals to be in CC after the turn I get charged. Not to mention... if you can warp wherever... dont put yourself in that situation anyway (tho sometimes crap happens). Really it just comes down to the fact that they suck.... BAD. Give them Necron rule and now they rape.... HARD!! Paying 8 pts more for the warscythe and getting +1S and the phsyker abilities seems like a must have guy (provided IF they have Necron)

Wraith: I see many good in these guys. Im really looking to use them. So the conviction here wont be that hard. I think the fact that they are fast as hell CC units with Inv saves and a huge str, attacks and Int makes them very appealing. However, the pt cost and the 1 WOUND makes them look very weak. And if they arnt even a guarnteed kill... it makes me wonder. I mean, if Im packing those points for a very fragile unit, they better be a kamakazie machine. Power weapons.... rending....

Trying to throw out my beef so you can help me out here...



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Old 19 Oct 2009, 20:29   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

Quote:
Originally Posted by freaky_beef
Words
Alright, so you are thinking a lot in statistics and not really on what happens in practice. You compare the shooting of eleven warriors at a landraider, to the effects of the heavy Destroyer. Keep this in mind, landraiders are used for assaulting things. If eleven warriors are shooting at a landraider, they will be charged and then killed. Heavy Destroyers have the range to reach out and touch someone, without being hit back. Also, Armour 14 is nearly impossible for anything short of meltas and monstrous creatures to kill. Heavy Destroyers are good agaisnt vehicles with juicy side and rear armour. Their range, coupled with their prestigious movement ability enables them to get flank shots on vehicles very easily.

Comparing their fire agaisnt the highest armour in the game, is a very weak comparison, and totally removes the advantage of their speed. I have so far used them in 6 games. In each one, they have been crucial for victory, and let the Destroyers not waste their fire on targets they can only glance and let my warriors hide in the back like they need to.

[hr]

The main difference between the Turbo-boosting Scarabs and outflanking Flayed ones, is that you can get a charge off before being even shot at. Agaisnt Orks, they could go after Lootas, big guns, or Far back shock attack gun Big-Meks. Otherwise, you cna deploy them in front of the warriors and use them as a tar-pit to keep your shooty-units safe.


[hr]

TombSpyders rock.

[hr]

Pariahs and Wraiths are pretty much garbage. Wraiths moderately better, but only toughness 4, and one wound each. Even more expensive them Pariahs and still don't have any way to ignore saves.
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Old 19 Oct 2009, 21:54   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

Grind, first off thanks for giving valid points.

My intentions to this warriors vs. HD is simply just based on statistics. And vs a tank with 10-12 Armor... HD will reign supreme. However, what do you really loose by taking 200 pts worth of HDs?

Lets take these 11 warriors and 3 HD vs A Dreadnought. 12 Front...

Warriors:
22 Shots (14.65 hit)
14.65 hits means 2.44 "6's"
2.44 chances to roll on the glancing table will probably at least result in a shaken or stunned. (Statistically guaranteed) Good enough for me

HD:
3 Shots (2 hit)
2 hits means we have a 50% chance to pen and 16% more to glance.
Lets say we pen and then there is a 50% chance to kill.
Final chance of destruction.... 16%, Which means if you shot your HDs at him EVERY turn on a 6 turn game.... turn 6 he would die.

Sure, HD have a much better chance at killing than the Warriors do. Obviously. But statistically speaking, a 5% chance to kill a LR or a 16% chance to kill a dread.... just isnt cutting it. And here is what we are loosing.

3 HDs means we add .75 to our phase out
11 warriors means we add 3.75 to our phase out

Lets not forget infantry. HDs can be rather ineffective against them.

HD vs any troop is a guarantee to kill 1.888 guys.
A warrior can vary from 9.75 (guard or nids) down to a marine at 2.44.

I apologize again Grind, but here comes more stats...

HDs have (statistically speaking) a 5% chance to kill a LR, a 16% chance to kill a Dread or even a 27% chance of killing an ork buggy, and only bring to the table .75 count to phase out and 1.88 kills to any infantry.

Warriors have a guarantee to at least stun any of those vehicles, add 3.75 to phase out, and kill 2.44-9.75 infantry.

In no way am I saying that warriors are amazing (tho they are pretty good as they can effect vehicles, kill troops and add numbers to phase out), but rather I am saying that when you compare something as simple as troops to a fully decked out Destroyer... you would think this HD would do a bit better.

Now, onto the Land Raider senario that I used. I get it that everything is situational. I wasnt saying that I would rely on warriors to blow one up... cause a nice suprise might be inside. But I was stating that I cant rely on HDs to do it either because they are rather ineffective. Even a simple dread... 16% chance of killing it is not worth 200 pts.

I am also aware that Destroyers are fast and have long range. Which is a definate plus. Staying away from the enemy is good. And speeding over to the other side to align for a perfect shot is as well.

Not denying that they can be great, and can most certainly be useful for you. I am, however, stating the fact that its a bit ridiculous that the same amount of warriors can do a better job. More phase out, more troops killed... and not to mention, can actually effect the opponents vehicles statistically every round... where HDs cannot guarantee that.

Remeber that I said I use a take all comers list. I am willing to bet HD has its place in certain armys. However, what would I possibly do with them vs a foot slogging ork army, or a swarm nid army? They are one dimensional for killing tanks, at which they dont do an outstanding job at. Codex soon, and I would be happy to see point reduction in them, better str or ap, more shots, higher chance of survival.... anything.

As far as im concerned, Necrons have no real way of handling tanks. Particle whip... meh. HDs, not really. And after gauss was nerfed... now what? When I take something designed to kill something else... it better freaking rock it. When the percents range from 5%-25%... my odds suck. Better off gaussing the tank. Cause at least you can still use the warriors for anything else. Where the HDs are solely for killing tanks.

Grind, I appreciate that you took the time to review my post. However, I truly cannot see the use of HDs... at all. Not to say that they arnt good for you... but they just dont make it happen for me. Give me some insights man!!

**Edit**

In no way am I saying that warriors are the answers to our problems. I am just showing the point that warriors in some cases can be just as good at tank busting as HDs.

Again, Im not saying I would run straight for the LR and gauss it up... but showing the fact that its just as effective as shooting it with a HD
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 15:46   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

Well, Not every army can have S10 AP1 Melta Weapons. S9 on a mobile skimmer body is actually a pretty rocking anti-tank weapon. Sure, it may have trouble with landraiders, but everything but Meltaguns and monstrous creatures share that problem.

For what they are, Heavy Destroyers are a Wonderful answer to the problem of enemy armour. I can understand fully if you do not believe so, but There is not much more I can say to try and change your mind. I'll say try them out in a few games. I have never trusted statistics, as they never capture the in-game context. All the are are abstract cold data which, really, has no relationship to how it could preform in game.

I have no real desire to argue this with you, as I find that sort of banter tiring. I have given you my positive impressions of the unit, and thus you must use that to form your own conclusions on how to build your army.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 23:30   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

Thats not the type of response I was awaiting. I am in no way trying to flame you or reject your opinions Grind. I appologize if my material may seem somewhat offensive. But Im trying to make myself come to a decision.

Title of the thread is Convince me....

Thus I am not convinced unless I get something besides a testimonial that they are good. I do believe you when you say they have done good. I am aware that stats are not everything about the game. Sometimes statistically your supposed to destroy someone... and nothing happens. Or how about the 6 saves on terminators... and there are 6 1's. Sometimes stats just dont play. However, they are used for good reasoning.

I am purely throwing out my reasoning to get some critical thinking going on. If they seem offensive, I truly appologize.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 01:26   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Convince me....

@ Mods, I understand that this conversion may become personal, and could be better suited to a PM. However, If his observation is the same as others, I wish to not make this my last post one which was unclear in my message (IE, I don't belive that I was the target of Flaming by any accounts).


Quote:
Thats not the type of response I was awaiting. I am in no way trying to flame you or reject your opinions Grind. I appologize if my material may seem somewhat offensive. But Im trying to make myself come to a decision.

Title of the thread is Convince me....
Sorry, no, I don't mean that at all. I think your a very swell person and such. It's just that I've made my point, and I don't feel like repeating the same things I have already said over and over. I know that you may want a discussion on me aggressively persuading you on using Heavy Destroyers, But I am not a person who will keep pushing a point until someone submits. I would much rather make a point on my experiences with the unit and my opinions and let you judge for your self if your willing to take the unit or not.

Honestly, Heavy Destroyers are not a very complicated unit. Their job is very simple and they have abilities that enhance that role. If I were to keep at this, I would be repeating the same things over and over, which is not an efficient use of your, or my time.

Now, I will admit that they do not always preform as I want them too. They miss, they fail to roll higher then a two on the damage charts. However, I try to get around this with redundancy.

I personally, Would never suggest taking a unit of three destroyers. Not only is this an easy target ( all three die, no WBB), but it also stunts their flexibility. I would much more suggest two units of two. A bit more points, but you give your opponent more targets (which prevents one unit dying out for good), but allows the successes of a few, not remove the other squads ability to continue hunting targets in the same turn.

They are T5 with a 3+ save, which is dead-hard. It will take a lot of effort (or bad luck on your part) to have them fall to anything short of anti-tank weapons, or plasma. They also have massive reach, I have never had my destroyers ever be locked in combat, as I have the reach and speed to out-run enemy combat troops, and still be able to hit my desired targets. Also, BS4 is very good, considering. Also, S9 is able to destroy enemy armour and vehicles. A lot of times, you will not want to shake/stun tanks. You will want them dead. Heavy Destroyers are the only medium we have to ensure that. The strength of the weapon, means that troop transports are super-easy to knock out, allowing the destroyers/immortals/warriors shoot the occupants, which is a job more suited to their skills.


One thing I have found, is that battle tanks, often pose the smallest threat to the Necron force (due to WBB and such). It's the transports that need to be taken out (not just shaken) as they MUST NOT be able to move. You Do not want assault troops to make it across the board in safety. You might say that this is a bit of a waste, or a bit of an overkill, but the nest form of kill is overkill. Also, whats the point of glancing transports or tanks, when you can penetrate and destroy them. If I need to shoot troops that need to rely on Gauss to shoot at tanks, I am either desperate, or bored. Glancing is not reliable. Glancing will not get you kill points, or prevent your units from being assaulted and run down.

Now, my experiences are only from 1000pts where I have used two as separate squads. I am in the process of building two more for my 1500pts army which will then have me two units of two. They will travel with my two destroyer squads and my destroyer lord in order to compliment their shooting, and help give the group better options then they did before. I have even used them a couple of times to nuke 'last man standing' or weaken trouble units with 2+ saves. I don't expect them to win games for me, but they add flexibility to my force and allow me more options to deal with an ever changing battlefield situation. If it gets to a point where they have no targets left (or none at all) I can use them to tarpit enemy mobs, or help keep units from being charges (by getting charged themselves). I would much rather two heavy destroyers to get charged and wiped out in my enemy assault phase by some rampaging orks, then my warriors. Then I can shoot them, and counter-charge at my leisure.


Hmm, seems I wrote a bit more then I meant to.



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