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Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 07:42   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

So recently i have been helping my friend with his list. He has played regular space marines for a while but he never pays attention to minor rules and stuff. I helped him build a interesting list with kalvin shrike( idk spelling) that lets him infiltrate 1 squad and give everything fleet of foot, that librarian character that has 3 spells a turn, and alot of other nice things including 2 drop pods with dreadnoughts, a squad of 10 terminators, and some tactical squads. Anyways for the last 2 weeks he keeps playing the same list i helped him create and not once can i beat him, the best i can hope for is a tie. He infiltrates the squad of 10 terminators along with the librarian character(forget name) and kalvin and recently every time we roll for deployment it's spearhead so everything is bunched together. I use a monolith, 3 heavy destroyers, 4 destroyers, 10 immortals, a lord with veil and orb. So turn 1 since he is 12" away from a unit he moves 6, shoot with terminators, fleet, assault, and kill everything in the squad they assault. I focus alot of my fire on them since the tactical squad and dreadnought are fairly easy to kill but the 2+ armor save and 5+ invo is killing me. He always kills my heavy destroyers first then basicly each turn after that he kills off a whole squad in assault. Is there any way i can avoid this?


@pepsi: There is a hq that gives 1 squad infiltrate....so guess who he gave it to... The hq's name is Kayvaan Shrike. He gives the whole army fleet and his whole squad gains the infiltrate special rule.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 08:19   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

double takes.

Terminators can infiltrate? Never knew it was possible. I learned something new today.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 13:30   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

The Librarian cant join an infiltrating unit or the unit loses its infiltrating ability. Also I belive the fleet/running is instead of charging and you definatly cant shoot if you want to fleet/run. The oviouse reason why this is not possible is they could infiltrate 12" out of sight, move 6", run 6" then charge. Nothing can get into combat on the first players turn one.

I think you should take a C'tan rather than destroyers, no saves for terminators. Deepstike the mololith near his tactical squads (Power Matrix, str 9 ap3 ordinance should hurt), heavy destroyers shooting at Librarian/the squad near him. Lord teleport with the immortals where ever you feel needs more support (rear of the dreadnought 20shots, 13hits, rougly 2 glancing and 2 penertrating hits).
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 13:59   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

Quote:
Nothing can get into combat on the first players turn one.
Actually using cunning placement of a land raider full of assault terminators with lightning claws and some very precise mesuring, those terminators can be in assault in turn one.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 14:04   #5 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

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Originally Posted by New Necron Lord
The Librarian cant join an infiltrating unit or the unit loses its infiltrating ability. Also I belive the fleet/running is instead of charging and you definatly cant shoot if you want to fleet/run. The oviouse reason why this is not possible is they could infiltrate 12" out of sight, move 6", run 6" then charge. Nothing can get into combat on the first players turn one.
You are right about the Lirbrarian, Shrike has to be attached to the unit that's infiltrating. But you're wrong about Fleet. If you just run, you can't shoot or assault, but with the Fleet of Foot USR, you can charge. Also, first turn assault is possible, see Dark Eldar Raider+Whyches with COmbat Drugs. >
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 14:15   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

Yes, Fleet of foot has change in 5th edition.

So anyone with Fleet can potentially assalut in Turn 1 depending on how well they roll for run -which is not an automatic 6". However by running they forfeit their ability to shoot and soften the assault target a bit.



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Old 30 Jul 2009, 14:46   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

hum thanks for the info, Im still using 4th ed rules with freinds mostly (stoped playing for a year, thats why I want to start a new army with new rules, fresh start). So definatly a C'tan then?
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 17:16   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

Hmm well It seems that you are having trouble deploying properly to counter his infiltrate. Why is the first squad he's charging your heavy destroyers? They shouldn't be front and center, especially in this case. Another important thing to remember is that the unit in question you are having trouble with is over 800 points total… this gives you a lot to work with to counter it.

I personally recommend a cheap small squad or two of scarabs. Looking at the units you are using you have the fast attack slots open. If you deploy properly you can force them to assault the unit you want them to, in this case your dirt cheap throw away scarabs. This results in his 800+ point unit killing a 50 point unit and suffering the return fire of your entire army during your shooting phase. Massed fire will drop Terminators.

With that said It might not be a terrible idea to have a CC counter charge unit added in your list. A C'tan would be ideal... but then again it’s a 300 point model. It looks like you guys are playing at the 1500 point range and this would require major changes to your army list. You might be able to get away with a few Spyders instead. 3 Spyders will run you only 165 points for a healthy amount of Str 6 attacks that ignore that 2+ save. Also your throw away scarabs will buy them the time to make a scarab swarm in the first assault phase so they get beefed up to 5 wounds per model. On top of that, fighting power fist Termies is great for them since for once they actually have the higher INT! These all makes them a great CC unit to throw at the Terminators and company after they have been seriously softened up by a round of shooting from your entire army.

Also one final thing to add, you have manuverability on your side. Veil, Power Matrix and turbo boosting can all be used to deny those Terminators the charge. It's better for your heavy Destroyers to Lose a turn of shooting turbo boosting to safety than to have them fire that round and get killed in the assualt phase.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 18:34   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

Since the last 3 games we played all happened to be spearhead it was easy for him to run in and deal with what needed killing. On first turn he moves 6", shoots at the heavy destroyers who are atleast 12" away, kills them, then assaults a squad, think they have relentless or something. Either way turn 1 he either moves and shoots out one of my squads in back(heavy destroyer or destroyers) or just moves, fleets, and assaults to take out a whole squad of warriors (10 terminators and a hq with all power fists vs 10 necrons with I 2 and weak attacks....not good on my side). Not sure if it matters but the squad has 2 auto cannons when he is playing shooty terminators and not assault ones( half lightning claws, half thunder hammer/storm shield)
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Old 31 Jul 2009, 15:37   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Space marines.....how to get past the terminators?

Well a couple things can be said to that. Even with spear head you can still deploy effectively.

- Ensure that he is following the assault rules correctly. He cannot shoot one unit then charge a different unit in the following assault phase.
- Make sure he is following infiltrate rules properly. If any of your units can draw LOS to any models in his 12 man unit then they are forced to deploy 18" out instead of 12".
- Intervening models provide cover saves. When you deploy your units be sure to deploy them in a way that they grant cover to each other if cover is scarce in your deployment zone. This is another reason why scarabs are great. Throw them in the front line to give your warriors cover, put destroyers behind your warriors. Also since you have a monolith you can more than likely fully hide your heavy destroyers behind it when you deploy.

I really feel some cheap scarabs will improve your list in this case and in general. They will give your valuable units cover if he goes shooty termies and they are the only unit he can charge if you deploy correctly.
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