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-   -   Why so damn weak in CC? (http://forums.tauonline.org/necrons/68581-why-so-damn-weak-cc.html)

Akaiyou 15 May 2009 07:49

Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Why are necrons so weak in CC? I have 3,400 points of necrons and the more I play with them the more i feel like they have this huge handicap lingering over their heads.

Today I was running 2 1000 point army lists.

1st list had
Lord - Des.Body; Orb; Phase Shifter; Warscythe

24 Warriors

3 Wraiths

1 Monolith


I was playing against space marines and I was running around with the lord and wraiths assaulting tactical troops and kicking butt for once in close combat. Which was quite refreshing however the wraiths were doing NO DAMAGE! It was all the Lord doing the damage. Sure the wraiths would get 5 wounds almost every time I assaulted with 9 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 2s but they never actually wounded anything which was horrible.

Then i got stuck in combat and got charged by a squad bearing a power fist and lost combat by just 1 wound. Forcing me to take a morale check which I failed....and then I got caught in the sweeping advance.

And this is where I just hate how that works for necrons. The whole unit gets destroyed because the Res.Orb doesn't protect you against Sweeping Advance right? And this can happen so easily that it makes you wonder why use them against anything with a decent initiative.

In my 2nd game i had a very similar list as in the 1st.

2nd List
Lord - Des.Body; Staff of Light; Orb; Lightning Field

26 Warriors

8 Scarabs

1 Monolith

Oh this one was one for the books...so I'm facing chaos space marines this time and I particle whip a squad of khorne berserkers and kill a bunch and i turbo boost to get the lord and squad into assault position in turn 2.

Then turn 2 comes and i run in there to assault, i shoot the staff of light kill 2 more berserkers and the monolith also helps out where I brought the squad down to 3 berserkers (1 of which was a champion with power weapon). I assault them with the Lord + Scarabs squad and get completely pwned by the Khorne Berserkers.

I had 7 swarms and 1 lord when i assaulted and they killed 1 scarab swarm by causing 4 wounds on me. The scarabs needed 5s to hit and 5s to wound and essentially they did NOTHING and the Lord who has only I4 barely managed to kill 1 berserker.

I lose combat, fail my morale check and here it comes...sweeping advance! Everyone destroyed yippee!!

By the way just to be clear Lightning Field automatically inflicts a S3 hit per unsaved wound right? Or do I have to roll to 'hit' with every of those extra attacks?

In any case I couldn't believe how easy my unit got owned by just 3 berserkers mainly because they happen to have a higher initiative value. Why on earth doesnt the res.orb protect against this?

Sigh...back to the drawing board.

Tyndmyr 15 May 2009 14:05

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
We're not. Now, everyone has bad days, sure. For example, wraiths never managing wounds on SMs is unfortunate. You're wounding on 2s. Thats just pure bad luck.

We're not the top of the CC ladder, but we're not bad. Our basic troops are superior to essentially any guard or tau troops. They also tend to outperform basic marine troops...attack profiles are similar, but WBB and Ld10 is huge.

Scarabs are good, but they are a specialist unit. Khorne Berzerkers are a very nasty assault unit that strikes first. The lord not having a warscythe is also a weakness in an assault unit.

Lightening orb autohits. You still need to roll wounds.

For the record, scarabs are fearless. You don't need a morale check on them, they just take extra wounds.

Akaiyou 15 May 2009 20:51

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
We're not. Now, everyone has bad days, sure. For example, wraiths never managing wounds on SMs is unfortunate. You're wounding on 2s. Thats just pure bad luck.

We're not the top of the CC ladder, but we're not bad. Our basic troops are superior to essentially any guard or tau troops. They also tend to outperform basic marine troops...attack profiles are similar, but WBB and Ld10 is huge.

Scarabs are good, but they are a specialist unit. Khorne Berzerkers are a very nasty assault unit that strikes first. The lord not having a warscythe is also a weakness in an assault unit.

Lightening orb autohits. You still need to roll wounds.

For the record, scarabs are fearless. You don't need a morale check on them, they just take extra wounds.

Oh no I definetly wounded them but even with 12 attacks on the charge from a group of 3 Wraiths, that's only 6 hits and 5 wounds (which is exactly what I kept getting every time) and then the marines made all their saves which sucked. I seriously think the wraiths should maybe be S5 with power weapons instead that would make them so much more useful.

Ok I can agree that DEFENSIVELY necrons are stronger in CC or 'should' be in comparison to space marines but space marines are protected by And They Shall Know No Fear. Which for combat purposes is better than WBB and LD 10 combined. As it prevents them from being swept. Offensively space marines are much superior as they can actually have a power weapon or power fist in the unit.

Against tau and guard yes necrons are superior infantry. But guard can also have power weapons in just about every unit, they can also toss in feel no pain for defense and overall you are most likely to be fighting tanks which I find necrons have a VERY VERY hard time doing in 5th edition rules.

I pumped like 50+ shots into a rhino in my last game and didn't do much and that was just 1 rhino!

You are right about scarabs I forgot about it because the Lord isn't fearless.

I still expected scarabs to be able to take down 3 berserkers along with the lord. The staff of light is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

omegatron 15 May 2009 21:12

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Log in more games until you feel the Necrons power.

A good tactician isn't an overnight thing, the more you play the better you become (assuming you're the learning type).


Tyndmyr 16 May 2009 00:22

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
SOL is a shooty weapon...honestly, its not different enough from normal necron shooty to bother with, imo.

Wraiths shouldn't have power weaps. Thats just way too powerful. a 3+ invuln plus WBB, plus ungodly movement, plus high init is already quite good for an assault unit. Honestly, a powerfist or weapon against them shouldn't be much of a concern.

Likewise, a melee lord should have a dest body, the invuln, the warscythe, and preferably a lightening field(this is best w scarabs of course). The orb is tempting though, and is situationally better for some things, like wraiths.

Your biggest strength is speed. Scarabs, destroyers, and wraiths are all pretty fast. Pick your targets. Shoot the assaulty things, assault the shooty things(or tie up stuff forever).

For AT...use dedicated weapons. Glances are pretty weak(though 40attacks on the charge from scarabs is no laughing matter). The warscythe is quite effective, as are spyders. From a shooty standpoint, heavy destroyers are the classic option. Don't rely on warrior fire to take down armor, or you'll be screwed against an armor spamming opponent.

Oh...and any Ctan is ungodly powerful in combat.

Colonel Marksman 16 May 2009 05:57

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
I'm going to test-run a themed Necron army that will have plenty of close combat.

Your games are pretty bad luck, but you have to pick and choose who you combat.

Everyone can say that they suck in close combat after charging a Carnifex with T7, S6, D6+1 attacks, 5 wounds, Bio-plasma and a 2+ armor save. The same goes for getting charged by Howling Banshees or Harlequins.

These units are special, hard-hitting units in hand-to-hand. They get plenty of attacks, generally don't allow armor saves, and are plenty strong. Necrons can do it, but they aren't totally awesome at it.

Staff of Light still counts as a power weapon, and with 4 attacks on the charge, something better die, even if it is a Terminator! All the Warscythe does is take away the shooting power and deals 2D6 vehicle penetration: it's the only difference.

Resurrection Orbs are still a must-have, as I've been told, and I'm starting to agree. They allow WBB to simple power weapons and anti-tank shots (which can be really annoying). But after looking online and personal contemplation, here's what I see as good for combat:

2 Necron Lords combined with Res Orb + Lightning Field + Gaze of Flame + Veil of Darkness
Since you can't take all of those options on 1 Lord, split it up.
Stick the two Lords in a unit of Flayed Ones.

Enemy units have no bonus attack for charging (Gaze of Flame). Models must pass a Ld test or hit on 6s in combat (Terrifying Visage), with -1 to Ld (Gaze of Flame). For every wound the unit inflicts, they take a S3 hit (Lightning Field). Any power weapons or weapons that inflict instant death still allow for WBB (Res Orb).

If things go bad, use Veil of Darkness to teleport somewhere else, or use it to teleport closer to an enemy unit. Since close combat attacks go to rear vehicles now, disruption fields are hardly worth taking except against something with a higher than 10 rear armor.

I am also considering a test with sticking two of these Necron Lords with a unit of Wraiths with Destroyer Bodies, but while you're much stronger and tougher, you don't get nearly as many attacks, and you lose much of the handy close combat stuff.


In any case, Pariahs are the best, as they are armed with a Warscythe and Gauss Blaster, they can shoot the kling out of units if out of range, or shoot them and then assault with power weapons. Unfortunately, they don't count as Necrons and are horribly slow.

If someone could get the Pariahs in combat with two Lords and a number of Flayed Ones, I don't care how good in combat they are, that enemy unit is seriously screwed! They would only hit the Flayed Ones on a 6 with a passed Ld test (reduced to 7 with Pariahs, -1 Ld with Gaze of Flame), and any hits they did make against a unit with a Lord with Lightning Field is taking S:3 hits for every wound they inflict. The Pariahs aren't going anywhere if you do lose combat (automatically letting you disengage with your Flayed Ones and Lord or 2) and are all armed with power weapons. Plus taking into account all the attacks the Lord gets and the fact that the Flayed Ones and Lords get WBB against anything.

If you could get a Nightmare Shroud, it says nothing about using it while in combat, and it says that you may activate it (not have to) instead of firing a weapon.

Sjoerd 16 May 2009 09:02

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
@colonel marksman: warscythe takes away inv saves too :)

and the big problem with pariahs is getting them in CC..you can't veil them, so they have to slog towards the enemy. Their rather low I for cc units means that they as good as never strike first. So, ok, hight toughness and good saves, but the WILL die because you never field a lot of pariahs...so what do we have: a omgwtfbbq unit that is going to recieve a lot of fire attention, and because they are expensive, that's not good.

Flayed ones are nice, but A2 I3...meh, their special rule is good but the odds of the power to work aren't that impressive. I rather play a shooty armour with a monolith than an all cc necron army. I just don't like to run my necron units in cc ...I'd rather hit and run necron style :P

limpchickeninabizkit 16 May 2009 09:08

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Necrons are weak in CC at the monent for the following reasons.

1. 5th edition improved combat
2. Necrons aren't up to date.

As soon as they are up to date, the Necrons will once again be a foce to be reckoned with. I think Necrons should get something similar to ATSKNF. They just don't seem like the kind that'd run away...

CmdrBonesaw 16 May 2009 16:30

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Good Ol' Shakey
Necrons are weak in CC at the monent for the following reasons.

1. 5th edition improved combat
2. Necrons aren't up to date.

3. It's just not the way the army is supposed to work. Even back in 3rd, the main weakness of Necrons was CC, and the only surefire way of getting rid of them was sweeping advancing them. Necrons always have been - and always will be - weak in CC. Their speciality is slow advance, extreme resistance against conventional weaponry, and nifty techno-gadgets. This will not change.

Cheers,
-Bone

omegatron 16 May 2009 17:08

Re: Why so damn weak in CC?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CmdrBonesaw
Quote:

Originally Posted by Good Ol' Shakey
Necrons are weak in CC at the monent for the following reasons.

1. 5th edition improved combat
2. Necrons aren't up to date.

3. It's just not the way the army is supposed to work. Even back in 3rd, the main weakness of Necrons was CC, and the only surefire way of getting rid of them was sweeping advancing them. Necrons always have been - and always will be - weak in CC. Their speciality is slow advance, extreme resistance against conventional weaponry, and nifty techno-gadgets. This will not change.

Cheers,
-Bone

otherwise they'll end up us the hyped and steroid boosted version of SMurfs.


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