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Question about phaseout
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Old 10 Apr 2009, 17:33   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Question about phaseout

Do necrons not yet deployed on the table (specifically, those entering later via a deepstriking monolith) count towards the total number of necrons when determining phaseout?

For example, a necron player has 60 necrons in his army, but only 40 start on the board. Before the rest of his force can arrive, 30 necrons are killed. Will he phase out at this point, or will he only phase out after 45 of his necrons are killed (even if there aren't that many on the board yet)?

I ask as a Tau player, because a friend of mine plays Necrons, and he insists that this is the proper interpretation of the rule, but it just seems to me like he's really cheating himself out of victories by interpreting his own rule so harshly.
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Old 11 Apr 2009, 01:21   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

I believe yes, it is total number of necrons killed. Otherwise, you'd run into wierd situations if you started with no warriors on the table. Do you autophase out?

That just doesnt make sense.
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Old 12 Apr 2009, 05:57   #3 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Yes they still count towards phase out. Keep in mind that any necrons not deployed on the board at the end of the game count as destroyed.
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Old 13 Apr 2009, 02:09   #4 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

That only is at end of game, though. Definitely not before then. =)
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Old 13 Apr 2009, 02:55   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

They count. It's a great way to run a warrior heavy army at the higher point levels and keep them safe for a few turns.
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Old 15 Apr 2009, 04:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I believe yes, it is total number of necrons killed. Otherwise, you'd run into wierd situations if you started with no warriors on the table. Do you autophase out?

That just doesnt make sense.
Phase out NUMBER is determined by your list.
say you have 50 necrons, anytime the Phaseout 'counting' triggers and you're at 12 or less models, you phase out.

Phaseout counting triggers' at the beginning of the Necron turn after WBB rolls'.
Reserves are rolled at the start of the players MOVEMENT turn, anything not on the table is not a Necron. necrons on 'reserve' is NOT a necron.

in the TS example :
For example, a necron player has 60 necrons in his army, but only 40 start on the board. Before the rest of his force can arrive, 30 necrons are killed. Will he phase out at this point, or will he only phase out after 45 of his necrons are killed (even if there aren't that many on the board yet)?

the Necron phases out since he's only 10 units at the time the check triggered, phase out triggers at 15 (from original 60), that is after the WBB rolls are done and he's still not above 15 models.

Ruling is simple. your list says your phase out NUMBER is 15. anytime you check for phaseout and the necrons ON THE TABLE is not above 15. you LOSE the game.

but maybe there's an FAQ that over rides this. I'm not updated on current Necron FAQs.
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Old 15 Apr 2009, 08:31   #7 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Necrons held in reserve actually do count towards Phase Out. I have read the Codex cover to cover and I cannot find a single instance that says otherwise. If there is a GW FAQ that corrects that I have yet to see it.
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Old 16 Apr 2009, 01:16   #8 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Omegatron, I would like to know what your sources are. Are you honestly going to say that if I started the game with 20 warriors on the board and 20 in reserve, if I lost 15 necrons in the first turn I would phase out? There is absolutely nothing in the codex or Errata to support your claim.

Under the reserves section in the Warriors profile it just says that any unit not deployed by the end of the game count as destroyed for victory point purposes. Since victory points are useless the necrons simply count as destroyed.

As you said, your phase out number is determined by your list, a list with 40 necrons would phase out when knocked down to 10 necrons or less. No where does the codex mention that units not on the board do not count as necrons. Show me your sources that support your claim and I may rewrite my argument.
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Old 16 Apr 2009, 05:46   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel_
Under the reserves section in the Warriors profile it just says that any unit not deployed by the end of the game count as destroyed for victory point purposes. Since victory points are useless the necrons simply count as destroyed.
Basically what are 'end-of the-game scenarios' ?

(1) Normal end of time, both players took their sweet time or by the 3rd round/match only an hour is left for an entire game and the mall (venue) closes.
Last turn is announced, unfortunately it's only the 3rd Cron turn and he has still 2 squads in reserve. he holds an objective, making in an otherwise draw (both holds an objective, both contest none). Will the Cron phase out and lose the game? only 10 out of 60, phaseout number is 15 ?

(2) Normal randomized game, turn 5, last turn for Cron same scenario, what is your ruling ?
(3) Fun games, we did this once, after turn 1 we roll for end-of-game, turn 2 (6), turn 3 (5), turn 4 (4) ...
same scenario, turn ends round 1. what would you rule ?

All these demonstrates that anytime you're having an end-of-game check, you treat reserves as destroyed, and it's not only for crons, but applies to all 40k armies.

Phaseout Check is basically a check for end-of-game, exclusively for crons. Like other end-of-game checks, if the criteria is not met, it ends the game. Like any end-of-game checks, all units in reserve or off-the-board is calculated as zero or nothing 'auto-destroyed'.

I guess the spirit of the Phaseout check that can be 'checked' even on turn 1 is to support that assumption that off-the-board cron is not a cron, otherwise it will just say on turn 5 or 4, do the phaseout check, (coz no army or luck in the 40k world could table a phalanxed cron from turn 1-3).

There are no exact ruling on this issue.

(1) In Dakka dakka threads, in all of their rules discussions, units in reserves does not count as 'on-the-table', thus gaunts in reserve does not test for IB. Basically if you searched for various discussions considering reserves, no on the-table-rules affect reserves, implying that they don't exist until they 'arrived' on the table.

(2) Anytime the game ends, units in reserve are destroyed. Bolsters the idea that they count as nothing until they come in the table.

(3) I assume the purpose of the Warrior troops limitation on having a minimum troop selection (2 troops) on the table before anyone can opt for reserve is to protect against the 'risk' of having troops in reserve.

(4) The check for Phaseout occurs after WBB but before reserves roll are rolled. Again my thought is that the game designer did this not the other way around (phaseout check after reserve rolls), is that to emphasize the 'risk' and negate possible abuse.

(5) In any tourney where strict time constarints are implemented, when the clock stops, anything on reserve is destroyed even if its only turn 3. So at any point in the game, any units in reserve does not count towards your total strength value.

(6) Necrons strategy is the phalanx. That makes them unique. Only the Necron army benefits from the Phalanx formation. DS and reserve is inherently a 'weak' strategy (from a Necrontyr POV), without the aid of spyders, lords and Warrior meat shields, Necrons arriving piecemeal is easily disposable. A lot of armies in 40k can arrive via reserve, and for a Necron army which lacks 'fluff' and 'flavor' maintaining their uniqueness is a must.

Not word for word, but I guess the 'spirit' of the design for the Necron army and common interpretation of other rules makes it logical to assume the theory.

As for me, I wouldn't care less if 'my way' or 'your way' is right, Necrons played outside the phalanx strategy is an easy picking. Necrons using the Liths as reserve drop off's means that for 1 turn they can't use it as a 'hospital' and they can't fire the damned AP3 particle whip. I'm not a rules lawyer never have been, if this issue arrives and having both 'camps' no verbatim rules to support their claim I would just offer a 'roll off'.

I would gladly settle for the 40K golden rule 'dice roll off' w/out any misgivings.
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Old 16 Apr 2009, 08:59   #10 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Question about phaseout

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegatron
Basically what are 'end-of the-game scenarios' ?

(1) Normal end of time, both players took their sweet time or by the 3rd round/match only an hour is left for an entire game and the mall (venue) closes.
Last turn is announced, unfortunately it's only the 3rd Cron turn and he has still 2 squads in reserve. he holds an objective, making in an otherwise draw (both holds an objective, both contest none). Will the Cron phase out and lose the game? only 10 out of 60, phaseout number is 15 ?

(2) Normal randomized game, turn 5, last turn for Cron same scenario, what is your ruling ?
(3) Fun games, we did this once, after turn 1 we roll for end-of-game, turn 2 (6), turn 3 (5), turn 4 (4) ...
same scenario, turn ends round 1. what would you rule ?

All these demonstrates that anytime you're having an end-of-game check, you treat reserves as destroyed, and it's not only for crons, but applies to all 40k armies.
Speaking purely from a standard game point of view, a game will last 5 to 7 turns. Reserves automatically enter on turn 5, so as it stands there is no risk for any army to not have a unit enter the game from reserve as there was in 4th edition. Just for fun games with little twists like you mentioned were not kept in mind when the phase out rule was designed. In a standard game all units held in reserve will be able to enter play at some point, that much is clear. No debate here.

Any threads on any other board is not any more or less valid than this thread.

As you said, phase out is an end-of-game check that is exclusively for the necrons just the same as the phase out rule. There is no other army that will automatically lose a game simply because one or two of their units were held in reserves when they took casualties.

Not having to test for instinctive behaviour when held in reserves is not the same thing as a unit of warriors in reserve, just because the unit is in reserve does not mean they cease to be necrons. All necrons in the list count towards phase out. The only ruling that makes reserves a risk is the fact that if the unit isn't deployed they count as being destroyed, the unit does not lose its special rule simply because it's not on the table.

A similar example of this is the Eldar Autarch, it clearly states under his master strategist special rule "While the Autarch is alive, you may choose to add 1 to your rolls for reserves, regardless of whether he is in play or not". A unit of warriors doesn't lose their necron special rule simply because they are off the table, they are still considered necrons and still count towards the phase out total.

The phase out special rule states: "If, after making all WBB rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models it will disappear in an eerie fashion...". The rule does not say "If after making all WBB rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its models on the table it will disappear....". There is no mention that necrons off the table do not count as necrons for phase out. The phase out number is 25% of all models in the necron army, not just those on the table.
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