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Need help with necron army vs. Nids
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Old 29 Aug 2008, 12:09   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Need help with necron army vs. Nids

I'm new to 40k and my friend has been destroying me with his nids and it's getting very frustrating. I want to build a necron army specially for nids and I need some help. I can't give you a specific army build for them, because he never uses same army but I can give you what he has.
For nids he has, hq: tyrant, warriors, broodlord Elites: Warriors, and Lictor Troops: Genestealers, Hormagaunts, and Ripper Swarms Fast attack: Raveners Heavy Support: Carnifex, and Zoantrope


Here is the Army I have been using:
Hq:
2 lords with rez orbs and veil of darkness

Troops:
2x20 Warriors

Fast Attack:
3 destroyers
4 Scarabs swarms
2 wraiths

Elites:
6 Flayed ones

Heavy Support:
1 tomb spyder

This army is 1507 I think, if you can recommend an army build between 1500 and 2000. I'm sure I need more destroyers. Possibly some heavy destroyers, and probably a monolith. I'm thinking I need to put my troops into smaller groups and, cut out the flayed ones and wraiths? Can anyone help me build a perfect anti nid army?

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Old 29 Aug 2008, 13:11   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

One thing you will want to watch is your phase out rate. In my brief time with necrons, I loved immortals. The multiple shots would help you take down more bugs before they get to you in Close combat. I like the scarabs, as they are pretty much expendable units. I would try and get them around the enemies flank and tied into close combat with one of the big bugs, More scarab bases equals a longer time that large bug is tied up, giving you more time to focus on taking out immediate threats that have to be addressed.

One thing I would suggest, is learn to recognise what biomorphs are on what bugs, it will be able to assess immediate threats much easier and you should be able to prioritize targets better.

I personally, would scrap the flayed ones and wraiths against the bugs. In my experience hand to hand is a bad idea with bugs, stand back and shoot them. So I would suggest getting more guns to do just that. I would seriously look into immortals, I don't know how they have changed over the different editions, and I last played them in 3rd edition, but it would be worth looking into.

I hope this has helped you a bit, best of luck scourging the planet of bugs.
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Old 29 Aug 2008, 13:56   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Alright firstly, I am assuming that one of his warrior HQ broods is really an Elites choice, the Force organization chart only allows for 2 HQ. Other than that, yea I don't like playing against nids either (hence why I started them).

The main problem that nids pose to you are 1, his monstous creatures don't allow for armor/ We'll be back, and 2 rending, nids have a lot of it, and again deny you you're we'll be back. The good thing is that both of these things happen in close combat. Now I know that necrons may be alright for combat, but Nids are basically the kings. A dedicated combat unit (Wraiths or flayed ones) for Necrons have too high a chance to fall to a modest size of his Hormagaunts.

Now onto your list. You have invested in two lords, thats not a bad idea. With all the denial of WWB, those res orbs certainly help, and if the enemy gets too close you can veil away. This is actually what I do with my Necrons in such a situation. Allow me to elaborate...

Imagine your deployment to be more or less in the center (Avoid the flanks as his outflanking genestealers can hurt you plenty). Both warrior squads are 'covered' by thier lords, destroyers are deployed on whatever flank you wish, and aim your scarabs for something big and expensive (hello Hive Tyrant or carnifex). So now you draw a line in the sand and say "try me!" He will advance towards you and you will have a shootout. with your superior armor and WBB it won't be too bad (remember if hes using a lot of templates try and keep your warriors loose). Concentrate on fast things, raverners, hormagaunts, the lictor, with all the shooting you have. Send you scarabs in to tie up his expensive units. When that lumbering carniex or 200+ point Hive Tyrant gets too close, you veil of darkness both warrior squads away, and your destroyers can turbo boost far away. (Also quick tip, you scarabs can boost also, giving them a 3+ cover save from boosting, THEN they have stealth and that save becomes 2+). so now you have left behind you tomb spyder and some scarabs, but if you have had ANY luck you have taken down much more and haven't lost anything from your main force (PS when I said wraiths and flayed ones weren't good against nids I meant scrap them and play a lower point game).

In the end, the 'perfect' anti-nid army is one that cannot be caught in thier claws and teeth. You are absolutely correct, you need to cut the close comabt for now (for nids), and get on those destroyers. Heavy destroyers are nice but I always end up liking my normal destroyers more (Quick Tip #2: Heavy destroyers' box come with all the parts for a destroyer). The Monolith may look scary to some opponents, but then his huge carnifex hits it 3 times and blows it to kingdom come (he may only get 1 D6 for penetration in cc, but he's still S 10 probably)

Well sorry for the litany! Good luck against the Great Devourer.

P.S. I do not have experience with Immortals, but I would be inclined to agree with Masnagj and add that they are: 1) mobile-ish (assault weapons) 2) very good at shooting; two things you want against the nids)
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Old 29 Aug 2008, 16:23   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Well you list is illegal in a couple of ways: one, it's seven points over fifteen hundred; two, it has two VoDs.

The two huge Warrior units will be an issue. You will only be able to target two of his units and he'll a lot more units to attack. The range of the weapon is an issue. Rapid Fire is 12" putting your Warriors in harms way of assault, a very bad thing. Which leads to the big issue, particularly with 'nids, is close combat. Losing combat is a major problem with Warriors due to their low initiate. Seeing twenty Warriors get swept is not fun.

You don't have any back up units for your Destroyers and Wraiths to help with WBB. Remember, models must be within 6" of another like model to get a WBB roll. If the unit of Destroyers or Wraiths are damaged, they are dead since there is no like model around.

I would recommend a Monolith since it can be used to pull units out of CC and 'nids will have a time downing it, that and it can pie plate which is always a Good Thing(tm). Immortals are a excellent for their points. Their weapon range and AP means most 'nid things hit will just go away and they are very resilient to CC with the T5. Destroyers are good at long range but you need to take numbers to get the volume of dakka you need. Two units of five will mow down most 'nid units. If you know there will be a lot TMC, then Heavy Destroyers are a recommended. The S9 AP2 gun is mondo way cool but you need to take them in numbers to get the dakka you need and for the emperors sake, keep them out of CC!
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Old 29 Aug 2008, 20:07   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

I had the same problem with nids but I made a solution, destroyers. :P
Just don't move with your warriors and just keep firing. In the end they will come, so block them with your scarabs. Move away and keep mowing them down with the guass fire power. This is not the best solution but the start of it. >
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Old 30 Aug 2008, 08:26   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Against my brother's Nids, i have always found that the more shooters the better, as they can completely own most gaunts and Nid Warriors with their anti-nid AP. your best bet would be:
1. 2x3 destroyers: AP 4 can kill most of the bugs the warriors can't
2. 4x destroyersas above
3. Lord with orb, Warscythe, destroyer body, Phylactery: ignoring saves in combat is useful against bigger bugs, especially Zoanthropes, and destroyer bodylets him speed around after your prime targets whilst Phylactery can help against any lucky Nid rolls.
4. Lord with Ord, SoL & Veil:Teleport around to hopefully get those shorter ranged footslogger weapons in range. also, SoL AP3 ignores Tyrant/fex saves.
5. Monolith: brings back dead, always useful. particle whip owns gaunts/rippers/stealers/warriors/raveners completely.
6. 2x 10 warriors. small, mobile groups to be ported around killing swarms.

This is a list i use when facing nids. it's fairly mobile, with phase out at 11. keep out of assault (exept with Warscythe lord) and you'll be fine.
Also, if the monolith isn't helping much, swap it for as many H. Destroyers as possible.

[hr]
Quote:
One thing I would suggest, is learn to recognise what biomorphs are on what bugs, it will be able to assess immediate threats much easier and you should be able to prioritize targets better.
Very, Very good advice. stick to it!
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Old 30 Aug 2008, 21:07   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

I personaly like heavy destroyers. Sure they cannot kill creatures with synaps in one shot (ones with two wounds), but they are excelent against carnefex's, and I have yet to see nids without at least one carnefex and a tyrant or boodloard with which to put some holes in. I personaly pack at least two heavy destroyers in all of my nid battles. For the most part I have two at 1,000 (unless I have a nightbringer, as he has a similar ranged weapon) then three in 1500+ (I would regularly increase them, but I have only three, so I have to rely on the nightbringer or monolith to suppliment their firepower). Heavy destroyers can also outrange warp blast and punch through the 2+ armor saves which the zoanothrops have (and if they did not buy the synaps upgrade, and are out of its range, they can be taken out in one shot). Also, it would not be uncommon for the carnefexs and tyrants to purchase a reletivly cheap 2+ armor upgrade (I know I would on multi-wound monsters like those).

One thing which I was not so sure about is tomb spyders. While they will not stand a chance against genestealers (hard to hit and any wound on the spyder have to rend) or do more than a wound or two against a carnefex (might regularly do 3 on an elite carnefex, but the heavy support are too strong), but they are simply amazing against gaunts. I figured that a good sized hormagaunt squad would be 15 (because of their expence, I figure multiple smaller squads), and the hormagounts would have toxin sacks and flesh hooks. As long as the spyder made a scarab squad without loosing a wound the hormagaunt squad lost every time, even when the hormagaunts assaulted the spyer. You will find that the gaunts will hit the spyder a bunch, like nearly all the seeming million of attacks, but the toughness, scarab meat shield (good for half the wounds three times over, and simply awesome if it some how manages an armor save), and strong armor save of the spyder keeps the unit alive phase after phase, and turn after turn. The biggest chalenge is if the gaunts assault the spyder (though I don't know why they would, kinda a bad target), because the excess wounds seep over and a few bad armor rolls can cause the spyder to die. But if the spyder assaults in to assist a warrior squad, or if the guants are stuck out in the oppen due to a succesful assault, then the spyder can easily win without even loosing its scarab shield (good old fearless and loosing assault). So given that 15 can't win most of the time, even with the assault, then it would not be a strech that 20 would not be able to win as long as the spyder assaults (I personaly thing that 20 assaulting will be too much for the spyder to handle, but then their points are way over the 55 point spyder). Of course if something else enters the fray (like some hyper-evolved warriors with rending or something), then all bets are off and they spyder will loose unless the dice gods are in your favor (like only one rending hit so your scarab swarm can take it).

Flayed ones are also extreamly effective against hormagaunts. Of course if the hormaguants are upgraded like crazy (essentialy making them geared against space marines, but being insainly expencive) the flayed ones will loose. But if just flesh hooks and toxin sacs are taken, then the longesvity of the flayed ones can allow them to take an assault from a squad of 20 and win a couple turns latter, though with only about 4 models left. So I guess it would be best if they deepstrike (if you want some) and attack the gaunts sitting on objectives (if they even do that). Again, if anything else enters the fray expect to loose, unless it is more gaunts and the total numbers do not exceed 25 (you can take 30 if you get lucky, but 25 is pushing it for any consistant results.

So tomb spyders are excelent against gaunts and can kill a carnefex if it has been sufficiently wounded. Which is why you take a decent amount of heavy destroyers, because they are the best thing you have for wounding the carnefex and the hive tyrant (a couple turns with three heavies or equivilant weaponry can kill a carnefex or tyrant before they hit your lines)

Then immortals are absolutly amazing vs genestealers. Some people like to give them a 4+ armor save, making them better in cc and allows them to take basic infantry ranged fire (which of course is the easiest to shoot at them with because the fex's are all but immune), so the immortals can cut through all biomorphs of stealers and the assault weapon allows the immortals to move backwards, so the stealers can only gain on them with their fleet roll (this scenario can happen on a flank from outflanking). Immortals can also hold their own against hormagaunts due to their high toughness, and paired with a lord with a veil they can veil away to vaporize a full squad of warriors providing synapse (I have done it, but then again my dice roll high for shooting (truly hurts for leadership tests)).

I would not use wraiths due to their lack of numbers. I would not use too many scarabs, due to their inability to hold anything but a tyrant or infantry (any WS 5+ will make scarabs and tomb spyders combat ineffective).

I would always use 2 heavy destroyers, two tomb spyders, 20 warriors, and a group of 8 immortals with a lord+ veil (which nearly comes to 1000 points). Heavies wound the MC's, and kill the truly dangerous ones. Warriors shoot at anything they can, and station themselfs in cover to help against barbed stranglers. Immortals and lord also shoot at anything they can (of course the primary target of light arms are genestealers and then gaunts), and then veil when something weak can be safely destroyed without being assaulted (so warriors after the tyrant is killed by the heavies). Tomb spyders then tie up and mop up anything that manages to get close (carnefex, hormagaunts, gaunts, etc).

Then I would just add onto that. So for 1500 I think I might take.

Lord: veil- 160

8 immortals- 224

14 warriors- 252
14 warriors- 252

5 destroyers- 250

3 tomb spyders- 165
3 heavy destroyers- 195

1498 points 45 necrons phase out at 11

Make a decently tight formation. Tomb spyders should be beind the warriors so that they benefit from the 4+ friendly save (the spyders are small enough to be covered, but a fex and a tyrant should almost never get a 4+ friendly save as 50% of their body should be covered) and their scarabs get a 3+ cover save to absorb any venom cannons that might decide that they have nothing better to do. Warriors should attempt to be in some sort of cover, whether it is a hill or some area terrain. Note that the warrior squads should be decently close to each other and should avoid the sids, due to outflanking. This also allows the spyders to quickly react and overwhelm practically anything that gets an assault in or threatens an assault (I'm thinking hormagaunts or ultra expensive rippers, plus 3 can tie up a decked out tyrant for half the game or possibly kill it if it does not have a lash whip). Tomb spyders can also be moved in front of the warriors (two spyders per warrior squad) to provide the warriors a 4+ cover save, as well as force enemies to split their assault attacks between the tomb spyders and the warriors. The immortals should be placed similarly as the warriors, but they really do not need a tomb spyder for support, as they can veil away after being assaulted by hormagaunts (truly the best unit for breaking through 24" weapons) or move away and extend their time shooting. Destroyers should be placed with a good field of fire. Destroyers do not need a cover save against tyrands, so feel free to move them in the open as long as they cannot be overwhelmed by fire. Destroyers should pick similar targets as the immortals, so light infantry and occasionally something with a higher toughness. Don't expect miracles against 2+ or 3+ armor saves, but it can do some damage (can to that extra amount of damage to take out that carnefex or tyrant). Heavy destroyers should attempt to blow apart carnefexs, hive tyrants, and zoanathrops. The biggest concern should be a tyrant with wings (#1 target) or a carnefex with a barbed strangler (like a non-armor penetrating battle cannon). Then the zoanathrops due to their nasty psyker powers or cc carnefexs so your spyders can take the last two or three wounds off (can punch through their 2+ armor saves and strike first most of the time).

At first glance putting the warriors in cover seems a bit silly. The reason for this is if your opponent decided not to pay for flesh hooks you will strike first, and a difficult terrain test has to be taken. Sure the difficult terrain test will normally be passed, but a 12" charge for hormagaunts means that a highest roll of 5 (out of 3 due to move through cover) would only allow a 10" charge. This means that a slightly bad roll can prevent a charge and allow you a devastating round of shooting in your turn (half a warrior squad in double tap range can devastate a gaunt brood)

The only good way to take out genestealers is to shoot them or let a c’tan die amongst them (ick). Once the stealers win they will be vulnerable to shooting, so losing a squad of warriors should also signal the death of the stealers (though that cover I had you go in could help them out… just hope they messed up their difficult terrain test). A positive note is that rending has been toned down, the negative note is that the stealers can re-roll all their wounds with a 1 point upgrade. This means that an average rolling will cause a large amount of rending attacks (with 8 stealers I lost 10 warriors to rending attacks, which was the entire unit). Of course if you give the lord a res orb, then that combined with the spyders will allow nearly all the warriors to take a WBB roll.
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Old 31 Aug 2008, 22:17   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Quote:
Originally Posted by machete

Here is the Army I have been using:
Hq:
2 lords with rez orbs and veil of darkness

Troops:
2x20 Warriors

Fast Attack:
3 destroyers
4 Scarabs swarms
2 wraiths

Elites:
6 Flayed ones

Heavy Support:
1 tomb spyder
Well first of Nids are one of your (at least mine) hardest match ups. Face it and bring your best game if you want to win against them. Simply put there is no way to put together a special nidkilling necron army. But onto your list, here are my thoughts.

You spend to much points on lords, dropping one (That is illegal anyway) will almost buy you a monolith.
You have to few Destroyers,Wraiths,Flayed Ones. With no unites of the same type to support for WBB it's easy with concentrated effort to down those small unites, and then you don't gett your WWB, and since you payed for it you should want it
To many warriors, In a 1500 point game my preference is 30 max, I usually use 20-23.

Now I don't know what models you have, frankly your list screams "I'm using what I own". And if it does you need to accept defeat to the nids, caus face it this list is just not good enough, or you can splash out some $$$ for more models.

If you follow my advice and drop 10+ warriors and a necron lord you'll pick up around 400 points, drop the wraiths and tomb spider to and you are almost at 600 (depending on how many warriors you drop). For that you can buy a Monolith, take your destroyers to 2x3 or 1x5, and still have points to increase the number of FO and buy som hvy destroyers.

Good luck with your quest of slaying nids, and please let us know if you succeed, and if so what changes you did on your list.
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Old 31 Aug 2008, 23:59   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Sleep Walker, karma earned
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Old 06 Sep 2008, 23:33   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Need help with necron army vs. Nids

Well I ordered a monolith, 2 more destroyers, and a heavy destroyer from scifi genre last night. I would have ordered more heavy destroyers and some immortals, but that could get expensive. Until I can afford more, I'll have to make due.
Being new to 40k I didn't really know everything I needed to know to build a good army. Hence my army is not so good. Thanks for the advice everyone. Especially Sleep Walker for you massive post.
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