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Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 22:04   #11 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinl
That was a great read, thanks! Now I have more info to base my DIY chapter off of. They're going to use (or have used) Raven Guard gene seed. The idea is this Chapter was created following the massacre of Istvaan V as a means to help rebuild. I just need a lot more detail, and this information will help.
Well there is a problem with that. There were no independant Chapters until well after the Horus Heresy, by the time the Legion's were split down, the Raven Guard already numbered around 4,000 marines so had rebuilt considerably by that point, but no chapters were founded until the split up of the Legions, and then it was likely a while after that before totally new chapters were created.
Though, 4,000 to the standard legions is awfully small.
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 22:23   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

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Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Though, 4,000 to the standard legions is awfully small.
Not necessarily, we have no real solid indication of just how many marines a Legion could/was supposed to boast. Some Legions like the Ultramarines were noted for being very large, others not so much. The Horus Heresy novels speak of thousands of marines but almost always numerous legions are present when the numbers get into the tens of thousands. 4,000 may be on the smallish size but it's not horrible. Few other Legions were much stronger at the time except for the Ultramarines, losses were heavy all around, the Raven Guard would have been little in the way of a special case. In fact the Salamanders had no second founding chapters for certain, the current organisation of the Salamanders suggests they had significantly less than even a thousand marines.
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 11:12   #13 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Nice article! The Raven Guard are one of my favourite Marine chapters and I love their combat doctrine. I've considered adding a few as allies to a Daemonhunters force or collecting a Combat Patrol of them.
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 23:03   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash113
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Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Though, 4,000 to the standard legions is awfully small.
Not necessarily, we have no real solid indication of just how many marines a Legion could/was supposed to boast. Some Legions like the Ultramarines were noted for being very large, others not so much. The Horus Heresy novels speak of thousands of marines but almost always numerous legions are present when the numbers get into the tens of thousands. 4,000 may be on the smallish size but it's not horrible. Few other Legions were much stronger at the time except for the Ultramarines, losses were heavy all around, the Raven Guard would have been little in the way of a special case. In fact the Salamanders had no second founding chapters for certain, the current organisation of the Salamanders suggests they had significantly less than even a thousand marines.
Aye, though, let's take into account the Luna Wolves, erm, Sons of Horus, they had (I think) 20 or so companies. Is that an anomaly?
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 23:48   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

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Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Aye, though, let's take into account the Luna Wolves, erm, Sons of Horus, they had (I think) 20 or so companies. Is that an anomaly?
Not necessarily but then again it's not a good indicator either way and not too helpful. Other Horus Heresy books, and other Black Library and Games Workshop resources point to Chapter organisations during the Great Crusade and Heresy, while others mention Companies. Worse yet the numbers involved at the times in the breakdown of Company's and Chapter's is also uncertain. Some Chapter formations in GW material during the Great Crusade mention thousands of marines, while others just 1000, some Company structures ellude to the normal 100 marines, others mention 1000 marine strong formations. The contradictions are immense and diverse and every Legion seems to have a different setup. For instance the World Eaters even had thing scalled "Assault Company's" and what not.

The only reliable number seems to be the breakdown of successor chapters following the Horus Heresy. As each Chapter was broken down to roughly 1000 marines it suggests as to the numbers any of the given legions could call upon following the Heresy. The Dark Angels had suffered a battering despite their relative lack of fighting during some parts, the Salamanders appeared to have suffered the worst and been unable to form even one successor chapter, while the Raven Guard had recovered some of their strength. Other Legions such as the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars also appear to have gained a very phyrric victory and their numbers of successors are not high. While of course the Ultramarines boasted a rediculous number of successor chapters. While they may have suffered an equal proportion or percentage of losses to the others in some cases, the Ultramarines appear to have boasted far larger numbers to begin with.

So... we... just... don't... know... none of the Horus Heresy material is exactly revealing on this subject, and much of it contradicts itself, and I have no idea whether GW and the Black Library will correct this problem, for now it's mostly up to speculation and whatever insights the next Horus Heresy novels might reveal.
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Old 16 Feb 2008, 04:07   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Hmm, they may have to revise a bit of the fluff in the space marine's second founding.

I mean most people would believe that the legions only contained 3,000, as most companies only split into three, erm, well that's what I thought when I was looking up the Imperial fist history.
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 05:57   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Quote:
Originally Posted by †Methelas†
Hmm, they may have to revise a bit of the fluff in the space marine's second founding.

I mean most people would believe that the legions only contained 3,000, as most companies only split into three, erm, well that's what I thought when I was looking up the Imperial fist history.
Yea, but really most Legions took a massive hammering during the Horus Heresy, the Salamander's and Raven Guard were slaughtered at the Istvaan V Drop Site Massacre, but the Blood Angels, White Scars and Imperial Fists suffered extensive losses during the fighting to defend the Emperor's palace, the Space Wolves faught their way across the galaxy several times up to and during the heresy, the Dark Angels had half their Legion turn against them and the in fighting that caused. The Iron Hands lost almost all of their Veterans to the Drop Site Massacre, the Ultramarines hit some hard combat when the Word Bearers trapped and disoriented the Ultramarines before Guilliman and the Ultramarines fought their way otu of the trap. Everybody had problems on their hands, and most took horrible losses. But just what the Legions normal numbers were... one really can't say. Just best guesses.

Hopefully as the Horus Heresy series continues some of these questions will be answered.
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 09:02   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Great Article, I wish that GW would go into more detail, surrounding the Gene-seed experiments which were used to try and speed up the rate at which the legion was re-populated, it would also be a good way to explore Corax's character, and what he was willing to risk for his legions survival.

One Question though, Why isn't this in the Librarium? Is it to get feedback? Because if so, *Thumbs up* .
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 17:09   #19 (permalink)
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One Question though, Why isn't this in the Librarium? Is it to get feedback? Because if so, *Thumbs up* .
Yup, just leaving it here while I work up the effort to revise and edit it, and to get feedback and such. Twould be nice to have others write some articles for the Librarium as well though .
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Old 19 Feb 2008, 04:11   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Raven Guard: A Comprehensive History

Something Id be interested in getting your Opinion on Vash, is where you believe Shrikes Wing fir into the 3rd Company Organisation? I think that they exist as a special group of 9 Veterans who do not belong to the 1st company, but rather to the 3rd Company, as an extra 9 (Making it a company fo 109 SM's) What do you think?
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