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Mystic Question!
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Old 23 May 2010, 19:32   #11 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

As far as I'm aware, the rulebook FAQ allows psychic powers that don't require line of sight, such as Nurgle Rot, to be used by measuring from the vehicle. But a Mystic's ability is not a psychic power (in terms of game rules at least) so doesn't really fall under that ruling.

If that's the case, where non-psychic abilities get broadcast from a vehicle's hull, then you get some horrifying combinations possible, such as a Culexus Assassin riding in a Land Raider, making every unit with a model within 12" have their Leadership reduced to 7 or Straken granting his Cold Steel and Courage abilities even further afield (such as from the wing tip or tail boom of a Valkyrie or Vendetta).
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MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
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Old 24 May 2010, 01:36   #12 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
As far as I'm aware, the rulebook FAQ allows psychic powers that don't require line of sight, such as Nurgle Rot, to be used by measuring from the vehicle. But a Mystic's ability is not a psychic power (in terms of game rules at least) so doesn't really fall under that ruling.

If that's the case, where non-psychic abilities get broadcast from a vehicle's hull, then you get some horrifying combinations possible, such as a Culexus Assassin riding in a Land Raider, making every unit with a model within 12" have their Leadership reduced to 7 or Straken granting his Cold Steel and Courage abilities even further afield (such as from the wing tip or tail boom of a Valkyrie or Vendetta).
MT is right, 40k has always been permissive and I agree with his interpretations.

Personally, I feel there's more written atm disallowing abilities from inside a vehicle than for it. Eldar's FAQ shows specifically some psychic powers being able to work without LOS, the BOB (however) has not shown any inclination so far towards a similar situation with skills/abilities.
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Old 24 May 2010, 01:46   #13 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Very true, guys, I hadn't thought of it that way. But that means lots of tournaments and players I know are doing it wrong with abilities like the Blood Chalice and, most importantly, the Mystic!
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Old 24 May 2010, 04:16   #14 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Page 66 of the main rulebook:

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull."

This would seem to fit the bill. It works the same way with the Ork Kustom Force Field. There is some float in that you are supposed to be measuring from a single model in the unit rather than the unit as a whole. But it seems pretty clear to me that "ranges other than shooting" is meant to cover special rules like this.
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Old 24 May 2010, 04:18   #15 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Oh, heh, that would fit the bill, Khanaris. And I had totally forgotten about KFF - that's certainly an extremely frequent example of that rule in use.
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Old 24 May 2010, 05:05   #16 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

That does indeed seem to be the case. It also means that the Doom of Malan'tai can affect a unit inside a transport or building since you can measure "to" the hull of the vehicle.
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[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
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Old 24 May 2010, 16:31   #17 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Except that one line in no way suddenly allows the special rules to kick in. It merely states that when you need to measure the distance i.e. "can" do so, then you measure from the hull.

Pretty much like when there's clear cases of it being allowed (like the Eldar psychic powers that don't need LOS or the Ork Headbanger effects).

IIRC, the KFF is stated to work even while in the vehicles. I don't have that codex at hand though to check and I don't feel bothered enough to pirate it for one question.
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Old 24 May 2010, 17:54   #18 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Kustom Force Fields do not, in any way, mention their effect as being able to be transmitted from a vehicle.
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[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
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Old 24 May 2010, 18:35   #19 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

Well this is annoying...

Looking further into this, the old errata stated that wargear doesn't work in vehicles.
Now, there's nothing in the BOB or Errata's disallowing/allowing it and a few codices/errata being specific about certain cases in doors. :P

I might be thinking of the KFF effect in Apoc that was vehicle transferred and just absentmindedly gave it to the KFF bearers in 40k.

Will check into it more, since GW is permissive and I'm not seeing anything atm.
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Old 24 May 2010, 19:02   #20 (permalink)
Ethereal
 
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Default Re: Mystic Question!

It says that you measure range from the vehicle for anything that isn't firing a weapon. If you would normally need to measure from the model, you measure from the vehicle hull if the model is embarked.

What complicates it is that characters can join units. In that case you still measure from the model.

A Big Mek alone in a transport unquestionably projects the KFF from the hull. He is a one-model unit, and were he not embarked you would measure ranges from him and him alone. The argument is that adding more models to his unit wouldn't change anything, since even by himself he seems to be able to run around to opposite corners of the Trukk as needed.

[hr]

40k is normally permissive, but there are limits to how far you can take that. There is nothing in the rulebook to state that characters in cover can still use their special abilities. Or that they can use them in the enemy's deployment zone. There is nothing to state that the KFF still works when the Mek is fleeing. There is nothing to state that the KFF works without Line of Sight. It just doesn't mention it. Even with RAW you can not completely eliminate the need to make judgments.

You can ask an infinite number of these questions. Sometimes the answer will be "the rules don't say you can" and sometimes the answer will be "the rules don't say that you can't". Often you can frame a question in multiple ways so that either answer would imply an absence of permission. Usually the answer will be reasonably easy to spot by asking yourself "why not?". This one is a bit tougher. There is nothing in the rulebook to say that Wargear and special rules stop working when you embark, and nothing to say that they continue working. But the book does provide you with a way to measure ranges from embarked models for purposes other than shooting. If there was never any need for this, why mention it? I suppose it could be meant to refer to abilities from outside of a vehicle effecting units inside a vehicle.

I would agree if there was still anything to suggest that embarking in a vehicle meant that wargear stopped working unless noted. But I can't find anything, either. And as I said, there is nothing that states that wargear and most special rules keep working when you enter terrain, either. We just assume that it does because there is no reason why it wouldn't.
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