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Thinking of Starting Witchhunters
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 02:35   #11 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Hope your not saying that standard sisters is good in combat. Against tau and guard they're good, but against everything else it's not the same. They have only one attack and on a charge they can get 2. But the problem with charging is majority of the time it's better to rapid fire and flame the unit than assault it. Seraphim is actually good in combat. Celestine models can do pretty well against marines expecally if you give them all str 5 or int 6. But regular troop sisters is not good in combat unless you're comparing them to guard. Against homogaunts, orcs, dire avengers, dark eldar, and any decant hth army will beat them down like step children.

But I have to admit that celestines with a canonness can do some damage in hth. They always hit on a 3 and can be int 6 with rending. They're pretty good going against genestealers in close combat expecally if you give them invulnerable saves. But regular sisters have a hard time winning combat against marines. Here is sample combat against 10 marines with no assaulting on either side. Cause honestly why would you assault when you can get more wounds by rapid firing and they more than likely would assault you.

Marines go first do to int 4
Marines hit on a 3 hitting 6.666 of the time
Marines wounding on 3 doing 4.444 wounds
Sisters have a 3+ save which means 1.11 sisters will die

Sisters will hit on a 4 regardless on int which mean only 5 attacks
if Sisters decide to be int 5 and hitting first Sisters would wound on a 5 only getting like 1 wound and the rend will be a prayer which a marine will lose less than .3333 of a marine

or if the sisters go the str 5 route which they can wound on a 3
sisters would put 3 wounds which means they would kill one marine. But wait one sister is dead so that would be 4.5 hits woulding 2.75 times which might barely kill a marine.

Shooting wise I have a plasma pistol, heavy flamer, and melta gun usally killing 5-6 marines or killing 19 - 21 bugs. So why would I ever assault these guys.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 02:44   #12 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
Hope your not saying that standard sisters is good in combat. Against tau and guard they're good, but against everything else it's not the same. They have only one attack and on a charge they can get 2. But the problem with charging is majority of the time it's better to rapid fire and flame the unit than assault it. Seraphim is actually good in combat. Celestine models can do pretty well against marines expecally if you give them all str 5 or int 6. But regular troop sisters is not good in combat unless you're comparing them to guard. Against homogaunts, orcs, dire avengers, dark eldar, and any decant hth army will beat them down like step children.

But I have to admit that celestines with a canonness can do some damage in hth. They always hit on a 3 and can be int 6 with rending. They're pretty good going against genestealers in close combat expecally if you give them invulnerable saves. But regular sisters have a hard time winning combat against marines. Here is sample combat against 10 marines with no assaulting on either side. Cause honestly why would you assault when you can get more wounds by rapid firing and they more than likely would assault you.

Marines go first do to int 4
Marines hit on a 3 hitting 6.666 of the time
Marines wounding on 3 doing 4.444 wounds
Sisters have a 3+ save which means 1.11 sisters will die

Sisters will hit on a 4 regardless on int which mean only 5 attacks
if Sisters decide to be int 5 and hitting first Sisters would wound on a 5 only getting like 1 wound and the rend will be a prayer which a marine will lose less than .3333 of a marine

or if the sisters go the str 5 route which they can wound on a 3
sisters would put 3 wounds which means they would kill one marine. But wait one sister is dead so that would be 4.5 hits woulding 2.75 times which might barely kill a marine.

Shooting wise I have a plasma pistol, heavy flamer, and melta gun usally killing 5-6 marines or killing 19 - 21 bugs. So why would I ever assault these guys.

... I didn't just see you... oh gosh... I did... wait seriously did you... ...



chicop, do you read anything I type?
FAITH POINTS. Have you heard of them?


10 Terminators against 9 Dominions, one is a VSS, a Priest, and a Canoness.

4 Dominions, VSS, Priest, and Canoness shoot their Melta weapons. At least 4 are going to die. Then they charge.

The Canoness uses her Litanies of Faith and gives the unit Invulnerable Saves equal to their Armor Save. The unit will then make all of their attacks Rending (Faith Point) and make those attacks Strength 5. They will go simul with the Terminators.


On average, the Terminators will kill less than 2 Battle Sisters.

The Canoness strikes with her Blessed Weapon, striking at Strength 7 with 4 attacks. The Priest and VSS are armed with Power Weapons and will strike with 6 attacks.

The remaining 8 Battle Sisters will attack with 16 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, and those attacks are Rending.


Let's not forget that they re-roll failed hits.


On average, every single Terminator will die.


Sorry for the all-caps, it seems that I have tried to make this point 3 times now.

One of the most common (and highly effective!) employments of Faith Points is the "Divine Flame". This is where you cram as much flame templates and then make the attacks "Rending". Here's two examples.


Canoness, Priest, VSS (Veteran Sister Superior), 1 Celestian w/Heavy Flamer, 1 Celestian with Flamer.
10 Terminators just teleported nearby.




Lots of holy flame...


4-5 Dead, now Charge.
Re-roll hits, Rending, +2 Strength (strike at Init: 1)
Invul Save = Armor Save




This is the usual result.



----------











Have a lot of Power Weapons? 5 Standard Battle Sisters with 2 Flamers, a Priest and VSS with a Brazier of Holy Fire and a Power Weapon. Let's flame 10 Space Marines and then charge into combat. If they carry a Standard Bearer, they can roll 3D6 and pick 2 dice for Faith Point tests.

Now, let's give these models +2 to their Initiative. Between the VSS and the Priest, they will strike with 8 power weapon attacks, re-roll failed hits on 4+, and will have Initiative 5, going first. Then after that, let's see how poor the Battle Sisters are in combat!



---------------


I've had my Canoness, Dominions and Priest, costing under 400 points, get charged by Logan and 7 Terminators (one being Arjac). My opponent regretted it, he lost Arjac, and Logan and a Terminator barely escaped with their lives!


Seraphim come with 2 hand weapons for a total of 30 attacks on the charge when you have a full unit of 10. I had them with Canoness Pyrophora assault 10 Blood Angel Death Company and a Chaplain, and emerge victorious by simply rolling average.






The problem with your examination is that you're doing 10 Space Marines with a plasma pistol, heavy flamer, and Meltagun for close to 200 points. I can get 13 Battle Sisters for that cost, a VSS with a plasma pistol, 2 Sisters with Meltaguns. And you know what? I can make all of my Bolters Rending if I wish. Charge me? I'll increase my Strength to +2 and then make my combat attacks Rending.

It seems to me from reading your posts that you've never played against Battle Sisters before.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 04:54   #13 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

and on top of that their hot goth chicks with a whole lot of pyrotechnics!!!!!

not to mention how awesome a nicely painted army of battle sisters looks.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 06:29   #14 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

I was saying my normal sister squad have plasma pistol, heavy flamer, and melta killing 5-6 marines via shooting or 20 bugs.

I was talking about troop sisters and not dominions, seraphim or celestines which I've already said that Celestine, and seraphim have nothing to worry about getting in hand to hand.

I'm saying again that sisters you take as standard troops aren't good in close combat. Standard troops won't assault due to the fact 7 sisters have rapid fire weapons which can almost get 2 xtra rending shots by rapid firing.

Also how you expect in both my examples standard troops getting str 5 and also able to get int 5. I guess I should have mentioned poping some faith to be able to get int 5

The problem with sisters is that the strong suit of the army is medium range no matter how you put it. It's not a close combat army at all. It's a medium range shoot fest. I judge armies on a troop to troop basis. If you're throwing in serephim than you'll have to compare against the entire army roster like terminators with storm sheilds, legion of the damned, thousand sons, nob bikers, harlequins, bloodletters, deceiver, and etc.

In your examples you're comparing your elites, and fast attack against standard troops or against examples you know they would win. I know what fait points are dear sir. I've played against sisters with my other armies and I've also play them. Sisters die rather bad to high rate of fire. Tau does well cause their standard weapon can wound sisters on a 2. Grant it you're hard pressed to kill an army with 3+ invul saves but if you run big sister squads of 10+ I really doubt even with an imagnefier you'll be able to get the invul save.

I'm gussing you only run two troops of sisters which all I have to do is wipe out those two squads and you can't win most games. You can go for a draw though.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think sisters is a bad army. If played right it's a very hard army to beat. For the amount of points a sister cost they almost run the same as tau or vet guard grenaders. But that 1 point makes them way better than most models in the 8- 12 point range.

Sister's weekness is facing long range armies or armies that excell in hand to hand both with significant tank killing ability. Destroy the rhino's and immolatars than the sisters are screwed. I've only lost one game with my sisters out of 7. The only reason I went first and my opponent feilded his land raiders away from my melta gunners. Also the fact I tried to take out land raiders with my two exorcist and my son asking questions didn't help. The only problem I had was the two landraiders. Which shouldn't be a problem due to me adding more melta-guns in my army.

I digress. Anyway not to many things can take rapid fire shooting from sisters. Only thousand sons are actually better at it over all but in point cost I can feild more than the sons so you can say sisters is the best rapid fire flame army in the game.

Sisters have the easiest time against these armies. Nurgle Marines, Tyranids, Bike Heavy marines, and any other army that lacks lots of anti-tank shooting or armies with a very small number.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 07:21   #15 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

You didn't read a single one of my examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
I was talking about troop sisters and not dominions, seraphim or celestines which I've already said that Celestine, and seraphim have nothing to worry about getting in hand to hand.
There is no difference between Dominions and regular Battle Sisters, only weapon options. And Celestians have a WS and Init:4, that's the only difference.


Quote:
I'm saying again that sisters you take as standard troops aren't good in close combat. Standard troops won't assault due to the fact 7 sisters have rapid fire weapons which can almost get 2 xtra rending shots by rapid firing.
Why stop to shoot Rapid Fire weapons all the time? Not everyone does that. I don't because it gives me the chance to either:
A. Tie you up in combat if you're shooty
B. Attack you before you attack me in combat

Regardless of either, normal Battle Sisters can be Faithful with a VSS. They can make their close combat attacks Rending, and Strength 5 on top of it with their numbers.


Quote:
Also how you expect in both my examples standard troops getting str 5 and also able to get int 5. I guess I should have mentioned poping some faith to be able to get int 5
If you don't use Faith Points, you have no business running a Witch Hunters army with Battle Sisters in it. You must always consider Faith Points when you're talking about strengths and weaknesses. You must also always consider the Priest being part of the unit.


Quote:
The problem with sisters is that the strong suit of the army is medium range no matter how you put it. It's not a close combat army at all. It's a medium range shoot fest. I judge armies on a troop to troop basis. If you're throwing in serephim than you'll have to compare against the entire army roster like terminators with storm sheilds, legion of the damned, thousand sons, nob bikers, harlequins, bloodletters, deceiver, and etc.
Battle Sister Squads are some of the most fearsome basic troop choices in the game. Why? How much do Thousand Sons cost? How versatile are they? (Legion of the Damned isn't a Troop choice) Yeah, Terminators sure are cheap and cost effective. You can pit any one of those units against the Battle Sisters, but on a point-by-point basis, the Battle Sisters will always win. They are too versatile, too cheap, too numbered, and too tough to be otherwise.

You can judge all you want, but I have fought these armies and conquered them. When you pack in that much short-range firepower, even being ok at close combat is nice. You are pitting up your speculation and guesswork at my proven success.


Quote:
I'm gussing you only run two troops of sisters which all I have to do is wipe out those two squads and you can't win most games. You can go for a draw though.
And no, you can't judge an army based on their troops alone. I take 2 minimum troops several times, and I win all the time because players just like you go to the game with that mentality. You think, "Oh, well, he's only got 2 troops in this game of Objectives, so I'll just sit on the Objectives [which I place out in the open] and win."

Meanwhile, you are using troop choices to hold Objectives while I am using the rest of my army list to completely destroy your army list off the board. I don't care about Objectives until late in the game. Before then, while you're fretting about with trying to just survive, I am destroying your army list. At the end of the game, if you happen to have any troop choices left holding Objectives, you are a lucky man. And my forces, which outnumber you in points by as much as 600% will simply contest what you have because you were foolish enough to target my troop choices.

If you do not target my troop choices, because they are so low on the threat scale, well, those troop choices aren't fighting and they are safely holding an Objective or two at minimum while your troop choices are being butchered by my Fast Attacks, Elites, Heavy Support and HQ choices that I saved points on by not taking in Troops. And now your troop choices, which are designed to go head-to-head with an army list of troop choices, is being destroyed.


I take you out at close range, destroying you utterly because you are drawn into designated killing zones, and then I will move in with the charge and eliminate whatever you have left over. Battle Sister firepower is so overwhelming that even if they are as poor in combat as you think, it won't matter because your numbers will be so dwindling low after I'm done shooting you.



This is how poor Battle Sisters are in combat. Canoness, Dominions, Priest, and 10 Sisters are assaulted by 9 Ripper bases, 30 Gargoyles, and the Parasite of Mortex. Held them up in combat for 4 turns (8 rounds of combat). The Ripper Swarms barely escaped with their lives, the Parasite could've been killed easily if I just attacked it with everything I had each turn, and then he wouldn't have any synapse in that area.

8 Seraphim shoot and assault 12 Genestealers, 1 being a Broodlord, and after two rounds of combat, kill all the Genestealers.


If we're so bad at combat, how do you explain my Dominions, killing no less than 10 Terminators each and every time they play Space Marines, by themselves in a single turn of shooting and assault? How do you explain Logan Grimnar and 7 Wolf Guard, 1 is Arjac Rockfist, assault a 10-man squad of Sisters, 1 being a Priest, and a Canoness, and barely escape death by a thread of luck? Explain to me then how 20 Battle Sisters, with a Priest, can kill 30 Orks and a Nob in a single turn? Or that time that my Retributors were assaulted by two Lictors and they came out of the combat victorious? Or when a Dreadnought, still sitting on the Objective, is attacked by a 5-man Storm Trooper Squad and then by 6 remaining normal Battle Sisters, wreck it, and then win me the game? What logic do you have on how 10 Seraphim can assault 36 Kroot models and cut them all down in combat in a single turn? How is it then, that your mere guesswork of judgement can pit itself against the time 60 Gaunts charged my battle lines and were cut down to pieces, burned, shot, and destroyed by a mere 20 Sister models after the Retributors? Then how 12 Genestealers came into the charged my survivors and were held up for 3 turns? The time I came across 20 Khorne Berserkers and Kharne the Betrayer, how they were slaughtered after making it into my deployment zone in 1 turn because of a Dawn of War match, and all be gone by the next because I didn't stand around and Rapid Fire but charged into combat with Arco-flagellants and a unit of near-by 10 Battle Sisters? How 6 Seraphim and a Canoness with 1 wound are assaulted by 10 Howling Banshees, Canoness killed, Seraphim Hit-and-Run, and finished them off with a single Faith Point through the whole ordeal? 15 Blood Claws hardly saw the light of day after getting shot and assaulted by my Dominions and Priest?


In every single game I have ever decided to charge, it always saved me the game, and had I stood and shot bolters, I would have lost. My main army list consists of 3 vehicles: 2 Exorcists, and 1 Rhino. The rest of my Sisters are on-foot. I put my faith into their overwhelming destructive capabilities to win my games, and they do it with ruthless efficiency.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 09:46   #16 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Wow. I need to get on my computer to quote back. You keep accusing me of not using faith omfg. In my examples using int 5 str 5 sisters with rending; where do you think the str5 int5 and rending come from. So I guess if I use faith regular sisters will be str7 int 7 with double rending. It's one thing to argue a point it's another when I'm using the faith as an example as well.

Hmmm. I think I mentioned that sisters was better than thousand sons if you kept reading. Due to the sisters being half the cost.

I've never lost a game when someone only use two troop choices. I always take out mobility and wipe out your troops. I'll just run circles around you till I destroy your units. Like I said earlier a group of 15 sisters can rend but they won't get an invul save.

I've played against and with sisters enough to know how to play them and what to do against them. I never lost with my old nids and beat the sisters pretty good. It's called staying out of rapid fire/ flame range. With my tau I've crushed sisters every time expecally when my outflanking kroot rains on their parade.

You always won't to go back to the dominion squad that have 4 melta guns hitting for 200 points. The melta guns won't do any good if the stealers have a venom thorpe giving them cover saves and defensive grenades and not to mention you're making dangerous terrain test. Also if the genestealers have toxin than they are re-rolling to wound putting more wounds on you. Not to metion if a tyrant is near by they can get preffered enemy which would allow them to re-roll to hit. I think it's fair to throw all that in there since you're throwing in priest and the cannoness.

If you play against nobs are people not used to fighting a certain army of course you will win. The funny thing about all this is you don't hear witch hunters winning ard boys and really big tournaments. Well greyknights are differant due to landraider spam.

Point value wise the withhunter army is a good army. It does really well due to the fact that not that many actually play the army. I think out of like 30 people at 1 store I know only 3 people who play them. Other stores gave usally 1 or 2 sister players. So that once in awhile they play sisters they don't bother reading up on th cause they're more worried about the tyranid, Orc, tau, or marine players.

I find this argument funny cause I'm not saying that sisters is a bad army. You're actually picking out things and agreeing to what I'm saying if you bothered to continue reading.

Tau and Guard gives the sisters the most problems. While marines, orcs, choas comes second. With armies like nids actually have a hard time against sisters.

I still say IMO that sisters do really well in rhinos poping out fir the double tap. Going against sisters once you realise how faith works than you can pick the army apart. Sisters play that mind game where people freak out when all of asuden the sisters get to save against plasma with the invul save. Just use ap weapons on huge squads and go high rate of fire with small squads.

Example 12 fire warriors double tapping with pathfinders giving the squad bs 1 would shoot 24 times hitting 20 wounding 17 times killing 6 sisters. Two squads would kill 12 wiping out the squad or possibly pinning them. From 30" they would kill 3 sisters a turn. But have your crisis suits fire until you get the squad down to 9 than switching to shooting with fire warriors you'll see sister squads dwindle rather quickly.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 10:24   #17 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Calm down everybody. We all know Sisters are cool.

They're between Space Marines and Guards, so that makes them even more different army to fight with completely like Orks or Nids.

I just have to remember that some races are weak or strong against one another naturally, and only through your tactics and the enemies' mistake that you can actually win. So, I respect Colonel Marksman fully to utilize the deadliness of the Sisters. Without Faiths, Sisters are nothing, we all know that.

Thanks again for the PM about the tactica, I've actually first read that and considered about the Sisters.

I don't know if I should really consider Sisters if there's a new codex/models coming in soon but I feel I should just go ahead while I have the interest. I've thought about converting the Space Marines into Sister Squads.

Otherwise, I might need some breakdown on how good their units are at handling certain tasks. Not to mention ideal basic army list to reference to.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 20:33   #18 (permalink)
Kroot Warrior
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Started a Sisters army at the start of 2008 as a small force to get a break from Nids & Eldar. Nice idea, but they're so much fun I'm up to around 5000 points including Inquisitors, retinue and the various transports they can take.

As has ben said, transports are the key to using SOBs and the house rule at our club allows us to take them for 35 points (in line with the FW addendum sheets).

Also, never go without 2 Exorcists.

And finally, in our club's current campaign the Sisters (of my fiend Piotr) head the campaign, whilst my Nids are very near the bottom!

The only thing I don't really like is the limited colour schemes, to keep within the fluff, though my next squad will be blue, just to be different!
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 21:07   #19 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

I wish I could play rhinos at 35 points with free smoke. That would give me room for other stuff. I had more sisters but due to Katrina I have to start collecting them again. I'm liking my sister/ guard even though I feel naked for lack of faith.

I agree with the color schemes and looking to paint my sisters with gold armour, purple cloaks, and green details for a new Orleans feel to them.
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Old 22 Feb 2010, 21:34   #20 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Thinking of Starting Witchhunters

Ok Dobb, in reference to your request for a basic army list here is a link to a 1500 list that I drew up for Waaghsteve a few months back. My post is about half way down the page:

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.ph...c,89352.0.html

I feel that it gives a very solid core to build around and maximizes the Sisters' potential for Faith inflicted brutality. Waaghsteve wrote me after the fact and said that this list brutalized his space marines. Hope this helps.
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