[shortgoth]

Since the last one should be allowed to die with what little grace is left to it

1500pts:

HQ:

Canoness w/Eviscerator, Inferno Pistol, Cloak of St. Aspira, Jump Pack, Book of St. Lucius

A little bit more tooled up, I often vascillate between an IP or a BP on the Canoness (or no gun at all). The IP gives a good chance to knock a wound off something Big-N-Nasty before you charge it and of course only has to kill a single Marine to make it's points back, but it does make the Canoness just that wee bit more expensive overall.

Elite:

Inquisitor w/Bolt Pistol & CCW, 3xFamliars, 1xPenitant, 1xHB Gun Servitor

No comments needed really. He's there and with a lot of luck might actually survive the game

Eversor Assassin

Friendlier than the Calliduswhen all alone. He's a killing machine and a ticking timebomb and works very well in conjunction with:

3xDeath Cult Assassins

Run 'em together - the Eversor is the advance, can tie up a nasty squad so block firing lanes to these girls who are, it must be said, pretty vicious in CC, can close. Generally the Eversor+Triple DCs kill far more (and therefore make more VPs) than the Callidus does. Requires a bit of use to get them running solidly but when they work, they can take out rather large chunks of the enemy. But these 4 together a) cost far more than the Callidus alone and b) will probably get even more raised eyebrows/nasty comments plus they don't have the same tactical options

Troops:

14xSisters, incs VSS w/Bolt Pistol, Eviscerator, Book of St. Lucius x2
14xSisters, incs VSS w/Bolter and Book.

Had to take a hit in numbers to accomodate the Assassins - they're now right at the bare minimum to be effective footsloggers

Heavy:

Retributors: 3 HBs, 2 Bolters, VSS w/Bolter

Again, knocked right down to minimum model count. Now a very fragile unit when recieving fire but OTOH it's a near-instant +1 Martyrdom Faith and the HBs are only really useful in the first couple of turns anyway

Fast Attack:

8 Seraphim w/2xTwin Flamers, VSS w/BP, Eviscerator.

Standard anti-infantry squad, operate alone of as a one-two with the Canoness (of course, the Canoness doesn't actually join the squad as it means they lose the Hit-N-Run)

6 Seraphim w/2xTwin Inferno Pistols

Four uses: Anti-Tank, Double-tapping vs Nasty Things[1], can run as a one-two punch with the Canoness for Big-N-Nasties, and of course can be used as a bait unit

1498pts altogether, 8 Faith, 73 models, only 6 scoring units (The Inqui doesn't really count) but that's what happens when you devote the entire Elite section to The Inquisistion.

Basically it's similar to previous lists, but with numbers (and a HB) dropped to make room for the larger Assassin Hitsquad. I could go back to the Callidus and put the numbers back up though. What do you think?

[1] Nastiest use of "Hit And Run" is with these girls. Get them into combat, SotM them, hit-and-run the survivors to within 6" of a Demon Prince, Oblit Squad, Termi Squad, Crises Suits, Tyranid MC, etc. Since Inferno Pistols are pistols after all, you can rapid-fire them - 4 Melta shots hitting on 3s with re-rolls (Plus a shot/follow-up charge from a Canoness on occasion) makes a real mess of his expensive unit. Not always possible but when it works...highly amusing.

[redbeard]

HQ:
I have mentioned this in other threads before, but a blessed weapon is a much better investment on a canoness than an evicerator, for a number of reasons.

First, Initiative combined with Independent Character status. You're more flexible. You're able to use acts to get an effective I6, when you need it.

This is more for dealing with units than characters. Your 2+ save (inv) will save you most of the time against characters. I've had my canoness take out a hive tyrant in one-on-one combat (running through 6 or 7 faith in the process). But, against large numbers of enemy attacks, that 2+ save is going to fail sometimes.

If you get assaulted by a mob of orks, or assault marines, chances are pretty good that you'll be taking a lot of attacks. With only 5 orks in base-to-base with your canoness, that's 20 attacks incoming. 2+ saves are good, but they fail against numbers. If you strike last, you're taking all those attacks. If, however, you use your better initiative, you're taking out two orks before they attack, and that reduces the number of incoming attacks by 8.

Furthermore, because the canoness is always considered independent in combat, if you use her to help shore up an assault against your sisters, a smart opponent will remove any models killed by the sisters from those in base-to-base contact with the canoness, so that her attacks get wasted.

What does an evicerator do for you? Well, it gives you a S6 attack, boostable to S8 with acts, and 2d6 against vehicles. S8 is good for instant-kills on marines.

But, your (BS 5) inferno pistol already does both of these things. You've already got the 2d6 penetration attack. You've already got the S8 (AP2) attack. So the evicerator isn't giving you anything you don't already have the ability to do. While, a blessed weapon is. It's a flexible weapon, striking at S7 if you need the strength, or at I6 if you need the speed. And, with the canonesses paltry WS4, it's almost always good for an extra attack to boot.


Elite Inquisitor:
Ok, here's a trick people round here use. Scrap the WH inquisitor. Take an allied DH inquisitor instead. Because, as a single elite choice, you can take a couple of mystics and a plasma-cannon servitor.

This is a big help against what are two of the more complicated armies to play against - daemonbombs and droppod marines. Stick your DH close to your retributors, and you get to unload all those heavy bolter shots on anything that deepstrikes near you. This absolutely rocks for your firebase. Nothing worse than someone taking your whole base out of the game by riding a couple of bikers up near some terrain, and dropping daemonettes directly into assault with you the next turn...

The plasma-cannon servitor is there for deepstriking terminators, obliterators, and their like. Look, all those terminators all bunched up, and you happen to have an AP2 blast all ready to shoot before they get to do anything.


Deathcult assassins
In a tournament, there are too many armies where these just don't make their points back. They lose to Nids and Orks. They're not very effective against guard or tau, simply because you're not going to get to assault anything except large numbers of basic troops, and the sheer number of attacks will overcome your t3, 5+.

I'm just not a big fan. I think the points could be better spent on another heavy bolter, and maybe numbers, for the retributors (especially if you're going to use the mystics trick), an evicerator superior for the inferno-pistol seraphim, and books for the retributors and seraphim. The eversor is nasty enough on his own without the 120 points of fragile backup.


I'd look at something more like:
HQ:
Canoness w/ blessed weapon, inferno pistol, jump pack, book of st. l. (135)

Allied Daemonhunter Lord (bolt pistol, ccw, 2x mystic, 1x gun servitor w/plasma cannon) (104)

Elite:
Allied Daemonhunter Eversor assassin (96)

Troops:
2x 14 Sisters inc VSS w/ eviscerator, bolt pistol, book (198)
1x 14 Sisters inc VSS w/ bolter, book (173)

Fast:
8 seraphim w/ 2 hand flamers, VSS w/ eviscerator, BP (226)
6 seraphim w/ 2 inferno pistols, VSS w/ eviscerator, BP, book (203)

Heavy:
8 Retributors (4 HB, VSS w/ book, bolter)

[shortgoth]

Originally Posted by Redbeard

HQ:
I have mentioned this in other threads before, but a blessed weapon is a much better investment on a canoness than an evicerator, for a number of reasons.

Cheers for the quick response mate.

Regarding Evis. vs BW, it's the extra strength and 2D6 that matters - it's not so much the S8 instakill or AV14 cracking, but the S6 wounds T4 on a 2 without using Faith wheras the BW's S5 only wounds T4 on a 3 without using Faith, and vs T5, well, you know. Although the master-crafting is helpful with hitting, the wounding rolls matter just as much and to get equal/better wounding rolls with the BW using Hand, you're stiking at I1 anyway. As you rightly say, the 2+ save is sufficient to ensure reasonable survivability, so the higher I/strike in I order of the BW is largely irellevant unless in combat alongside a Sisters unit where the opponent has a chance to remove models from B-T-B with the Canoness.

Another minor point is that the IP has an effective range of 15" vs Tanks (since you want to be in half range to get the extra D6) wheras the evis has an effective 18" range. Plus it's a belts-and-braces (suspenders if you're American) approach: If I fail to hit/penetrate/destroy the tank with S8+D6 of the Pistol, I can still follow-up with the Evis for S6+2D6 or S8+2D6, wheras if I've got the BW and the IP shot fails, S5/7+d6 just doesn't work.

The Evis vs BW question is always debated, I land on the Evis. side of the fence, you land on the BW side. Either are perfectly acceptable choices but everyone has a favourite.

If you get assaulted by a mob of orks, or assault marines, chances are pretty good that you'll be taking a lot of attacks. With only 5 orks in base-to-base with your canoness, that's 20 attacks incoming. 2+ saves are good, but they fail against numbers. If you strike last, you're taking all those attacks. If, however, you use your better initiative, you're taking out two orks before they attack, and that reduces the number of incoming attacks by 8.

A fair point, but if 5 Orks are in B-T-B than 5-10 more will be within 2" assistance range and likely a powerklaw Nob will be in there too. A BW won't necessarily save me in those circumstances.

Furthermore, because the canoness is always considered independent in combat, if you use her to help shore up an assault against your sisters, a smart opponent will remove any models killed by the sisters from those in base-to-base contact with the canoness, so that her attacks get wasted.

That is the strongest argument for the BW, granted, and makes it worth considering.

Of course, possibly the most important reason for the decision is that I prefer the look of my converted Canoness' with Eviscerator to the BW model I have .

Elite Inquisitor:
Ok, here's a trick people round here use.Scrap the WH inquisitor. Take an allied DH inquisitor instead.

Allies aren't legal for Tournaments. Would if I could.

Deathcult assassins
In a tournament, there are too many armies where these just don't make their points back. They lose to Nids and Orks.

Don't know what Tourneys you're thinking of but around here the foe: 70% Meq, 20% Eldar, 10% everything else. They may lose to Nids and Orks but the only Nid army I'm likely to meet is the Godzilla Army, in which case no Assassins are all that useful and the only Ork list I'm likely to meet is the KoS (Feralz not being allowed in Tourneys) and those are few and far between these days. As for only having basic troops to target vs Tau and Guard, the fact that both of those armies have basic troops who are pretty shabby in CC only helps the "punching a hole" that they're intended for (if they survive shooting of course).

Truth be told, I prefer a Callidus for all-comers armies since they can always be useful for something (and the regaining of 95pts by swapping back to the Callidus allows bumping up of numbers back to how they were), but was throwing the Eversor/Triple DCs as an option. I'm still vacillating but definitely leaning towards agreeing with you and dropping the DCs.

Which would you choose between lone Eversor and Callidus, since you're not a fan of Eversor+Triple Deathcultists?

Any other comments on the other units?

[MalVeauX]

Shortgoth,

I'm right on board with what Redbeard just said. The Inquisitor could be more useful if you're allowed to take allies in this Tourney. Plus, you could swap the heavy bolter servitor for a psycannon if you wanted. Then you could have an Inquisitor with a Psycannon and 3 mystics. Pretty nice get-up when shooting all the time. And should you lose the mystics, your psycannon becomes an ind. character who cannot be targeted. Could be interesting.

Death Cults aren't amazing like a Callidus is, but I will suggest you remove them for the simple fact that they're non-scoring units. You already have (1) cannoness (2) eversor... which are non-scoring. If you get too many points locked up in non-scoring units, you get less points in the scoring units. Just a suggestion.

Edit: Just saw you replied again, ninja'd!

Cheers!

[Starchilde]

I second what Redbeard and Malveux have said. Go with the Daemonhunter Inquisitor if you can, go with the Callidus, and go with the blessed weapon. In general, they are all "bigger bangs for your bucks."

Although I do have a question for you: with the eviserator for your Cannoness, what exactly do you plan on tasking her with? In other words, ideally, what units in the opposing force will you send her after/what role will she play in your army?

[shortgoth]

Sadly no allies are allowed for any tournament in the UK that I'm aware of (generally all tourneys are either GW, WPS (Warhammer Players Society), or independants using a variation of the WPS ruleset) so that's that idea nixed.

I'll definitely switch back to the Callidus and use the points to bring the squads back up to full size/loadout.

I'm still unconvinced about the Blessed Weapon though, the Evis has always worked for me in the past. As for targets, they're basically the same with either weapon opion - light vehicles (although the Evis can take on higher AV ones as well) and enemy support units and/or lone HQs - I usually rely on the Sisters, Rets and Seraphim to go for the larger squads with the Canoness doing support/mopping-up work. The 2+ save is far too easily failed when I do throw her into large enemy squads, and although I do throw her into them from time to time she usually dies due to hidden powerfist/klaw attacks.

[redbeard]

Eversor vs. Callidus - I think they're roughly of equivalent value for their points. Can you spend 25 points elsewhere for better effect? If so, take the eversor, and the 25 points somewhere else. Do you already have the upgrades and numbers you need elsewhere? Take the Callidus.

I don't specifically favour one over the other. The Callidus can word-in-the-ear always, but she can get stuck not showing up until turn 4 too, or face the risk of having to spend at least one turn out in the open. The eversor's increased charge distance means he can almost always hit assault on turn 2, if not turn 1, without spending time being shot at. She's better against chaplians, he's better against squads. It's really a toss-up.

---
Blessed Weapon/Evicerator:

The extra to-hit roll makes a little bit more difference against marines than the increased odds to wound. Not much, but it does have the edge.

Without burning any faith, against MEQs, the blessed weapon is going to score (3+ (1/2 + 1/2*1/2 + 1/2*1/2*1/2))*1/2 * 2/3 kills (1.29)

The evicerator is going to score 3*1/2*5/6 = 1.25 kills.

I agree, having the followup with the evicerator charge is nice against tanks, but you do have another 2 potential mobile evicerators and 2 more less-mobile ones - ones that don't run the risk of losing all their attacks in assault with another unit.
----
Too bad about the lack of allies. In that case, I'd maybe just run the cheapo solo inquisitor, maybe with one familiar, and a liber heresius. I think you were buring a few too many points on familiars and penitents above.
----


Deathcults: Even against a 80% marine field, I'm not convinced. They're almost three times as expensive as daemonettes and not nearly as good (I know we can't take daemonettes, just using them as a reference).

Zealots are cool.

[MalVeauX]

Shortgoth,

In the endless "He said, she said" debates of Eviscerator or Blessed Weapon, I tend to think of it simply the same way I use Chaos Lords. I pick a goal for my HQ (Cannoness operate very much like Chaos Lts. do). I then hunt said goal (target) or wait for said situation to present my opportunity (countering). Whatever weapon best suits your goal, is the weapon you should take.

Statistically, fighting marines, there's not a vast difference between the Blessed Weapon & Evsicerator. But there's a major difference when fighting T3 and T5 category infantry. So use that as your selling point perhaps.

Personally I don't consider faith when I consider my Cannoness. I expect her to use some faith for survival perhaps, and sometimes to do a single critical combat. But I don't expect to use all my faith on her. I use more faith on the normal sisters, simply because I do enjoy Divine Guidance for example. So I tend to think more in terms of using her as much as possible, without Faith use, but I'll use Faith if it's better for me if I do on her. But I don't build her for faith use, so to speak.

-- Just a thought; if you're gaming circle or tourney is usually full of low ap armies, who mass up lascannons, plasma, etc, I'd really consider Zealots as RedBeard just mentioned. Zealots are horrendously cheap, massive in numbers and really useful against armies that are all min/maxed and toting pure power guns. Flamers and Dakka can waste zealots fast, but a lascannon against them is a joke. Could be an option if you had access to chapter approved material in the tourney.

Cheers!

[carmachu]

What does everyone use for redeptionists? The actually redeptionists are way too much money to bother getting....

[shortgoth]

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Eversor vs. Callidus - I think they're roughly of equivalent value for their points.* Can you spend 25 points elsewhere for better effect?* If so, take the eversor, and the 25 points somewhere else.* *Do you already have the upgrades and numbers you need elsewhere?* Take the Callidus.

I think I shall go for the Callidus the extra 25 freed up points for taking the Eversor aren't really needed. Much as I like the WMD of assassins, I do like the Callidus more.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Too bad about the lack of allies.* In that case, I'd maybe just run the cheapo solo inquisitor, maybe with one familiar, and a liber heresius.* *I think you were buring a few too many points on familiars and penitents above....Zealots are cool.

Originally Posted by carmachu

What does everyone use for redeptionists? The actually redeptionists are way too much money to bother getting....

Zealots: Mix of Empire Militia, Imperial Guard, any other plastic box set bits would be cheapest solution, Escher models from Necromunda keep the "Sisters of Battle" going whilst adding a clearly non-SoB unit, but are of course just as expensive as Redemptionists. Ebay comes in handy.

Fanatics w/Eviscerators: Finally, a use for those Repentia models! 'cause no one in their right mind would take the actual unit* ;D

The mutiple-retinue Inqui, the lack of Allies, and the lack of zealots all have the same base reason - UK Tournies don't allow the latter two, and turning up at a WPS-based tourney with a lone Inqui purely to allow the assassin is an offense just short of lynchable.

Originally Posted by Redbeard

Deathcults: Even against a 80% marine field, I'm not convinced.* *They're almost three times as expensive as daemonettes and not nearly as good* (I know we can't take daemonettes, just using them as a reference).

You've convinced me.

Originally Posted by MalVeauX

Personally I don't consider faith when I consider my Cannoness. I expect her to use some faith for survival perhaps, and sometimes to do a single critical combat. But I don't expect to use all my faith on her. I use more faith on the normal sisters, simply because I do enjoy Divine Guidance for example. So I tend to think more in terms of using her as much as possible, without Faith use, but I'll use Faith if it's better for me if I do on her. But I don't build her for faith use, so to speak.

Indeed, I spend far more Faith on DG and keeping Seraphim and the girls alive than I do on the combat buffs for Canoness, no point in using up Faith unless absolutely neccessary. Sadly SotM is pretty much mandatory when fighting enemy HQs, 'nid MCs, and the like due to them always having power weapons or equivalent (and imagine my horror when I played Necrons to discover that my opponent had a Warscythe....whilst playing with closed lists).

Originally Posted by MalVeauX

-- Just a thought; if you're gaming circle or tourney is usually full of low ap armies, who mass up lascannons, plasma, etc, I'd really consider Zealots as RedBeard just mentioned. Zealots are horrendously cheap, massive in numbers and really useful against armies that are all min/maxed and toting pure power guns. Flamers and Dakka can waste zealots fast, but a lascannon against them is a joke. Could be an option if you had access to chapter approved material in the tourney.

For friendly games, such things are always an option. Sadly as explained above, for a tourny list they aren't. No Allies, no Forgeworld, and no Chapter Approved Units/Army lists are standard rules in any tourny, with or without comp.

---------------------------------------

Ok, I'm back to the Callidus-using list. As a recap, it's:

Canoness w/BP, Eviscerator, jump pack, cloak, Book of St. Lucius

Elite Inqui w/BP & CCW, Warrior w/Shotgun (I want to use the model for a theme), 3x Familiars (also themed to match the Inqui), Gun Servitor w/HB (again, themed)

Callidus

3x16 Sisters w/Vets (all w/Books), 2 have Eviscerators and BPs, one has a Bolter.

8 Seraphim w/2xFlamers, VSS w/Eviscerator and Book
6 Seraphim w/2xInferno Pistoliers.

Gives me 162 points to spend

I'm torn between a 2nd Seraphim IP hit squad as above, or 8 Rets w/4HBs and a VSS or 2x6 Arbites w/2Plasma and 4 shotguns (these guys match the Inqui - I could take melta in thes squads but there are no Arbite/Enforcer models with meltaguns and thus i'd have to convert them somehow). Alternatively, bumping the IP squad up to 8 and giving them a VSS w/Eviscerator and taking a single Arbites squad also uses up the points.

Your thoughts? Seraphim don't deploy in Omega which is bad (leaves me with only 4 starting units at that level), I would normally chuck in some cheap ISTs or Arbites for a couple scoring units/sacrifical units/distractions but it'll hammer any comp scoring to incredibly low levels. Rets give some long range fire and I can always remove the VSS for extra Faith (since I very rarely use DG or SotM or such on that squad unless they get hit by an assault unit and I need to slow them down, plus, Heavy Bolters always get a couple rounds of shooting off. On the other hand, the Rets are sitting ducks wheras the Serpahim are far more mobile and those IPs can come in very handy (or another pair of flamers is also possible).