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Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 05:45   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

How popular would you say Daemonhunter/Witchhunter armies are in strict tournament play? The reason why I ask is because I have this thing about trying things that are outside of the box first and farmost. Based on some of the Tournament results that I have downloaded read from the GW web page, it would appear that these religious armies aren't so popular compared to the typical SM and Chaos SM (Eldar, Tau, and Tyranids seem to be all tied for 3rd place overall). I want something that I think is cool of course and will enjoy playing, but not something that everyone else seems to play like SM and CSM.

Currently im still trying to clarify the rules on the general forum as to why GW has "No allies are allowed" in their "Grand Finals" rules and what exactly that means for Daemonhunter/Witchhunter allies or inducted SM/IG units. But I continue to be fascinated with the fluff and models of both the Daemonhunter and Witchhunter armies, and im thinking of possibly taking one or both as a second serious army (necrons being my first).
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 15:41   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

Agamemnon,

In strict tournament play, I'd say that the WH and DH forces do not fare as well as others. They never do. Sometimes, there's a golden moment, where a WH or DH force "won" the day type thing. But in the grand scheme of tournament and competition play, the Inquisitorial forces just don't have it going on for them. There's a few reasons for that:

1 - Lack of people playing them. You can't win often if no one uses them after all.
2 - Not as balanced as an army like Space Marines.
3 - Hard to power-game with (they're far from being Eldar).
4 - Character heavy; non-scoring unit heavy army list for the "important" parts of it (not friendly to missions).
5 - Relies on many units, not a single unit which does it all (ie: not a marine).

It all kind of boils down something along those lines anyways (in my opinion). If a lot more people played these forces, you may see something else. The lists aren't inherently bad, there just aren't a lot of players out there, and of those, only a small percentage are probably "good" in terms of competitive play. There's a difference between beating your circle of friends or random opponents, and fighting pure power-players and competitive people who will do anything and quote anything to stop you from getting in their way after all.

As for grand finals and allies, usually there's a ruling from the GW on the matter, for armies like Lost and the Damned and the Inquisitorial forces. It really shouldn't be a big question for you, as you ask if "inducted allies" are allies or not, because for us, they're "codex" in a way and not normal. In the end, they probably won't let you use something that doesn't originate in your codex as an option, so consider that when you build a force designed for competitive play like this. That means, expect to be denied your inducted allies and expect to not have access to any other sort of ally for that matter. In short, if you play DH, expect only what's in your list. And if you play WH, again, expect only what's in your list as well. This really, really puts a little black raining cloud over these armies for competitive play, because a lot of the competitive nature of them, comes from their ability to be flexible through allies, instead of limited in their pure fashion.

Anyhow, taking them as a serious army is a serious decision. For starters, they're more expensive. These models are metal and they're low point models (sisters, storm troopers). That makes for loads of cash being spent to build up a force. It's also a serious decision, because there's a difference between fluffy approaches and competitive approaches. I can safely say though, competitive wise, you'll get more use out of the WH army list than the DH army list.

So feel free to ask more questions or pose more ideas

Cheers!
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 19:19   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

MalVeaux, can you elaborate on #s 2 and 3? Basically what I was thinking about with DHs was that id design an army specifically to destroy SM armies in general, as DH id alreaddy be strong against CSMs so i figure with both of those down id be good to go. I had also thought about designing an army around achieving the mission objective as quickly and effectively as possible. I know it has been said before that people usually forget about the mission cause they wanna kill the other guy, but if I nail down the mission I win, so that was another angle I was thinking of pursuing.

But what exactly is it that makes them unbalanced (to much CC and no range?) and how come they are difficult to "power-game" with (compared to the Eldar)?

thanks
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 21:30   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

Sure,

Quote:
2 - Not as balanced as an army like Space Marines.
The reason I made this comparison, is due to scaling and do to flexibility. Consider what the 4th edition space marines can do, at the 400 point level all the way to the 2,000 point level. Their HQ's are retarded good for their points. Look at the rites of battle for example, supplying leadership and moral to the entire army. How silly is that? It's better than an Ethereal ability. The librarians and their powers are also insane; fear of darkness for example. The chaplain has always been very powerful for his points, for a humble price, having everything he needs. Combine this with flexible troops like marines, who can be stationary with a long ranged anti-tank gun, or mobilized or on foot, with transports and assault weapons, they have every gun under the sun. Not just 3 options, but way more options, from flamers to meltas, plasma to plasma cannons, missiles to lascannons, etc. To add more to this they can be further customized via the traits system to build upon a strength and to make them do whatever we want basically. We also have scouts as well, so we have lighter infantry with potent ranged weapons, including full sniper rifles, heavy bolter and a missile option. Compulsory marines, can "do it all" basically. Our sisters and grey knights and storm troopers, cannot do this. Our units for troops, are all short ranged and lack these options. We have some of the options, but there's a big difference between making something happen on turn 1 and making it happen on turn 3 or 4 for example. The real kicker though, is the non-compulsory marine units. Look at their fast attack, elites and their heavy support. They can cram a dreadnought in there, that isn't a heavy support. Land speeders are insanely good and cheap and they scale. In heavy support, we have devastators, but more importantly, the cheap and potent predator, and the nasty and way too cheap whirlwind. So consider the following:

HQ - Librarian; Fury of the Ancients (sniper HQ, unlimited range, crazy)
Troop - Marines x 6; Lascannon; Plasmagun
Troop - Marines x 6; Lascannon; Plasmagun
Fast Attack - Land Speeder Tornado; Heavy bolter & Assault Cannon
Heavy - Whirlwind

We barely scratch 500 points with this, and this is a complete and competent space marine army. It has ranged support, and mobility and it's mobility is powerful, shooting on the go. Not to mention the sick power of the artillery of the whirlwind and the infinite annoying power of that librarian who will just stand back and let you have it, while you can't touch him.

Try to do anything with 500 points in Daemonhunters for example, and you can forget facing this simple space marine army. Try doing something 500 points of sisters and you have a better chance, but you will still lack the overall output and resolve that the marine army will have.

So what's the big deal right? So what if they're great at low points... right? This is where scaling comes in. The space marines can carry this kind of point for point power from 400~500 points to 2000 points. You don't get diminishing returns, there's no risk in a unit. Most marine units are extremely cheap for what they do, and they come in multiples and multiples of units, so you have tons of powerful cheap units that "do it all" and you can have all kinds of support from very heavy to very light and everything in between.

What can grey knights do in 2,000 points that the space marine army can't outnumber them 4:1 with and waste them on the first turn? What can witch hunters do, with 2,000 points, that the marines can't answer with something even worse? Sure, we could put countless sisters of the board, in hopes that he cannot shoot them all, but that's not very interesting now is it. The point is, marines have an answer for everything and can pull it off regardless of the point value (nearly) and WH and DH don't have these options, all the time. We simply lack that kind of balance (or advantage if you want to think of it like that). Instead, we have to find other ways to deal with things and our methods are pretty different from theres. It may seem simple, but there's a huge dynamic between rhino mounted troops with meltas as AT support, compared to a single lascannon in a unit that is so cheap it costs just barely 100 points, compared to our 150~200 point unit mounted up. See what I mean?

Quote:
3 - Hard to power-game with (they're far from being Eldar).
This one should be pretty apparent for your Daemonhunter army. How on earth can it be power gamed? Can we load up on something that is particularly good? What weapons or units exist in that army that really make other players think "Ouuuucchhh!" when they see them? Nothing really. There are power gaming aspects to the army, such as fielding non-heavy support land raiders, nasty assassin tricks, lots of teleporting tricks, etc. But in the end, another army isn't really doomed by any of this. In all respects, a Daeomonhunter army can hardly be power gamed, without them totally gearing up for a specific opponent's army list (but any army can do this). On a "all come" basis, they cannot power game for all comers.

Witch Hunters can be power-gamed, but not at the same level as the traditional sense. No one looks over at a sisters army or a WH army in general and says, "Man, that's just not even right... not fair at all... power gamer!" We can amass loads of meltaguns and flamers, and divine bolters, but they're all short ranged and require a lot of effort to get into place (unless we're fighting tyranid). Our only ranged support, comes in the form of the Exorcist. Some may call having 3 of them in a small army big time power gaming, and they'd be right, but that's only one example of something we can do that is "dirty." We cannot really max out something and watch it really make a huge impact on the game basically.

Now, compare this to marines, who can min/max their troops to have lascannons and plasmaguns, for cheap. Top it off with heavy supports like whirlwinds times three in the list. Add in dreadnoughts for moving firepower. Add in lots of individual landspeeders for more moving firepower. In 1,000 points, you can have an insane amount of output, and still be rather resilient. The grand father of them all though, are the Eldar. The classic power-gaming army, is the starcannon loaded Eldar army, where everything has a starcannon, and it's all guided by a farseer for example. So armies are looking at 20+ Str6 Ap2 shots at long range coming at them all the time, with re-rollable hits. That's pretty crazy. The basic idea of power gaming, is minimizing something, in order to maximize something else. Some armies can do this very well, and they're "glass cannons" so to speak. The WH/DH armies on the other hand, can't really maximize something in particular that really stomps the enemy so to speak. The best we have... is probably just maxing out basic sisters!

Anyhow; hopefully you get the idea.

Cheers!
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 22:42   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

Ya, I get the idea now. I guess I gotta find another army that will be both Rare, and will pwn in tournament play.
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 23:17   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agamemnon
Ya, I get the idea now. I guess I gotta find another army that will be both Rare, and will pwn in tournament play.
Don't get me wrong; you can win with WH/DH in a tournament, it just isn't going to be nearly as easy as it would be with space marines, or chaos, for example. A skilled player would be able to do it, but mind you, it would not be an easy task, even with a lot of skill (and of course, depending on the armies they're facing).

Cheers!
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Old 17 Jan 2006, 23:51   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

actually you can kinda power game....3 dreads w/las/missiles. Also deepstriking most of your army...it can be potent or can fail miserably....depending on your foes...also if you ever fight harleys....pack onthe incinerators...
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Old 18 Jan 2006, 00:03   #8 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

That's not really power gaming though, that's simply how the army works. Dreadnoughts are not point effective, so the weapons they have are not all that dangerous, considering they're A12 and cannot deep strike; they walk. So those first turns, they can do something with their single shot weapons, but an army with infantry with anti-tank support will destroy these A12 dreadnoughts first turn pretty much; long before the deep striking Knights even arrive, unsupported. Sure, it could work against a very unsavez opponent, but I wouldn't call it power gaming.

For an example, of maxing out something, which is power-gaming, here's an example:

HQ1 - BroCap'n; Psycannon
HQ2 - Inquisitor Lord; Emperor's Tarot; Psycannon; Mystics x 3; Sage x 1
Elite1 - Inquisitor; Psycannon; Targeter
Elite2 - Inquisitor; Psycannon; Targeter
Elite3 - Calldius Assassin
Troop1 - Storm Troopers x 6; Plasmaguns x 2
Troop2 - Storm Troopers x 6; Plasmaguns x 2
Troop3 - Storm Troopers x 6; Plasmaguns x 2
Troop4 - Storm Troopers x 8; Meltaguns x 2; Rhino; EA; Smokes
Troop5 - Storm Troopers x 8; Meltaguns x 2; Rhino; EA; Smokes
Heavy1 - Land Raider; Extra Armor
Heavy2 - Land Raider; Extra Armor

You'll notice, it's min/maxed very much, to get as many "dangerous" guns on the field that cannot be targeted due to ind. character status. All the while, we skimp troops with cheap plasma teams, and take very dismal mobilized units, who are all on their own with meltas. To "trick" the pony, we drop two fat land raiders down, to scare them into shooting them, instead of your rhinos, and effectively try to cripple the opponent from 36 inches while we get our plasma into place. This is not even a good example of power gaming, but it's just an example to give you an idea of what I was talking about (which is power-gaming that is effective and can win missions).

Cheers!
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Old 18 Jan 2006, 00:28   #9 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agamemnon
Ya, I get the idea now. I guess I gotta find another army that will be both Rare, and will pwn in tournament play.
Don't get me wrong; you can win with WH/DH in a tournament, it just isn't going to be nearly as easy as it would be with space marines, or chaos, for example. A skilled player would be able to do it, but mind you, it would not be an easy task, even with a lot of skill (and of course, depending on the armies they're facing).

Cheers!
Excellent posts mate.

IMO, winning with the DH revolves around making the better elements of your army fight when it's advantageous for them. For example, 2+ save carnifexes can be a pain to kill for most daemonhunters, but gk termis and especially the gm will slaughter them.

Of course that's not really any different to any other army, which then backs up what MalVeauX is saying about any army being able to win.
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Old 22 Jan 2006, 01:26   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Daemonhunters/Witchhunters Tournament Popularity

The reason why they can't powergame is one reason why I am playing daemon hunters. Plus the Dogfights that you get when you play against a decent army. It's exciting and hard, but fun in the end.
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