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[Deneris]

As I've been a Sons player both before and after the new codex, I thought it would be useful to run down the 'pros' and 'cons' of the "new" Sons of Magnus for those of you who haven't had a chance to use or even fight against them on the battlefield.



'Pros' of the Thousand Sons
The Rubric: Sons now benefit from a 4+ invulnerable save, allowing them to potentially shrug off the worst the universe can throw at them.

The Sorcerer: This fellow still serves as heavy weapon AND close combat specialist, with the added bonus of a force weapon, allowing him to deal with any multi-wound nasties that engage the squad in combat.

Bolters of DOOM: Their bolters are now AP3, which can be fired at 24" even if they moved. Need I say more?

All Is Dust: The Sons are still fearless.

The Stats: They have the basic stats of a "normal" marine, even the valuable initiative of 4- giving them the jump on Plague Marines.




The 'Cons' of Thousand Sons
The Cost: At 8 points more expensive than a regular marine, a squad of 10, plus a sorcerer, can really add up the points for a relatively small unit.

The Sorcerer: He has few options in weaponry/wargear, and once you buy a spell for him, he can be as expensive (or more so) than 3 full Rubric marines. AND his stats aren't any better than that of an average marine...

The Speed: Only moving d6 a round (Or best of 2d6 with the sorcerer) means your Sons probably won't arrive where and when they're needed. Of course, you can buy them a rhino... but that adds yet more points to their cost.

Weakness to "Dakka": Previously, the Sons could rely on 2 wounds to help them shake off bolters/lasguns/whatnot. Now... they tend to get thinned out by massed "lesser" fire, as we know that even a 3+ save only lasts so long.

"What's a Chainsword?": Now that almost every other marine has a close combat weapon, theSons still just have their bolter to rely on in close combat. And the sorcerer can only do so much...

Weaponry: Sure, the AP3 bolter is great, but the Sons tend to have issues when dealing with anything with 2+ armor, or a tank with armor better than 10. The sorcerer MIGHT be able to "Bolt of Change" the target, but first he has to get the spell off... then hit... then damage... And watch the spell get negated by Runes of Warding or a Psychic Hood. Give me a good ol' lascannon or meltagun.

==============

Overall, I like the new Thousand Sons; it's rather amusing to laugh off railguns shots. I hope this analysis proves useful.

[Trogdor]

Allow me to back all this up with some math:

At BS 4 and S 4 the basic (or rather rubric) thousand son will have a 0,33 1/3 chance to kill one MEQ. This is exceptionally nice! But we cannot just assume that now 23 pts confer to 1/3 dead marines, because there has to be a sorcerer.

Let us assume a unit of 5 rubric marines and one sorcerer with doombolt. This adds up to 185 pts, or 30,88 pts per model. Quite costy, especially if we keep in mind that the new thousand sons are only as tough as any other marine as long as there is no AP3+ involved, where they fare much better.

Anyway, in this configuration we have 3 ranges to look at: 12", 18" and 24". The only difference will be the sheer number of shots. Remember: 3 shots = one marine down
12": 13 shots, 4,33 dead loyalists
18": 8 shots, 2,66 dead loyalists
24": 5 shots, 1,66 dead loyalists


So we see that at 24" the inferno shells are rather wasted. Killing 1,66 Marines/turn is not worth 185 pts. At 18 pts we have one more casualty, but 12" is obviously the best distance for thousand sons to fight at. Sadly this is also the standard assault distance, and as Deneris already mentioned the thousand sons lack CCWs and pistols (but even if they had their numbers are too small, they would be killed anyway by more dedicated CC-units). One possible way to solve this problem is keeping an independent character around, although this is quite costy, as a sorcerer or lord will end up roughly between 150 and 170 pts easily. And it is not quite the best idea to use one of two HQs only for babysitting a handfull of marines.
The best solution would be to wipe out the target entirely. So we have too concentrate the fire of our army (or at least parts of it).

Another question is: How do we get them into rapid fire range? Footslogging might be one answer, but due to slow and purposeful they are rather limited in their movement. The average for one heavy terrain test is 4,47", so they are nearly 25% slower than normal infantry. True, they can fire up to 24", but it is not anywhere as effective as rapidfiring.

The rhino is another option: For 35pts it will increase the average attack-range from 16,47" (12" firing, 4,47" movement) to 26,9" (12" movemet+ 2,9" disembarking+12" range). Of course the drawback is obvious: a rhino with thousand sons in it makes a good and juicy target, and the AV 11 is not too hard to crack open.

But as the rhino can also be used as a screen to break enemy LOS after disembarking (shortening the effective range stated above) and it will prevent them from early casualties. Of course there is the possibility for the unit to be entangled in the destroyed remains of their transport.

All in all I would say go for the rhino. If you already spend that much points on thousand sons, another 35 pts will not hurt. And it increases the effectiveness drastically. A short word on extra armour: In the new codex we get cheap rhinos, but this is widely negated by extra armour. What is the effect of this wargear? It will kick into effect at 1/6 glancing hits, or 13/36 penetrating hits, and allow the rhino to move on.

I would probably not take the extra armour, as I only want the thousand son 1, if absolute need is 2 turns inside the rhino.

But now we look at one really expensive unit: 210 points for 6 marines and one rhino. IMO that is just way too much.

My conclusion: Too expensive to be used as footsloggers and still very expensive when mounted in a rhino. They cannot get the job done by themselves either way, they will have to team up with other units. They are fragile, and a very juicy target with rather easily accessible VPs.

I considered them, I still like the feel of them, but honestly: There are better units we can spend our points on.

Thousand Sons are just too limited too be effective in an all comer setting and their high points are even more of a drawback.

Especially when we could get chosen or havocs instead: 7 chosen, four of them with plasma guns cost only 1 pt more (186pts), kill 0,5 MEqs more than TS and they are highly effective against TEq and light vehicles, too. They also have the option for rhinos and they can even infiltrate. For the lack of the 4+ save they can partially make up by using cover. Did I mention that they even fare better in CC if they should get assaulted?
Only drawback: chosen take up an elite-slot.

So, if you really want to use TS I wish you good luck and the blessing of tzeeentch. I hope some of the information I provided will help you.

Greetz, Trogdor

[Aun]

Thousand Sons are expensive, but they do offer more than a 4+ involn save compared to Chosen.

Slow And Purposeful.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, SLOW AND PERPOSFULL IS NOT A DISSADVANTAGE!!! On average you are rolling a 4-5, not that much less than a normal marine squad, but the advantage you get is extremely great and something that Chosen do not have, firing on the move.

Plasma guns can only fire at 12" if you move the same turn, Thousand Sons can ALWYAS fire up to their maximum distance AND assault the same turn they fire. These advantages are key, they allow you no dissadvantage on moving and make them a rather Mobile squad with a large effective range.
Plasma guns also have a substantial risk of killing the owner, but this is offset by their ST7.

Thousand Sons also have the aforementioned 4+ involn. While this play's no effect on normal fire, it is a large advantage against Assault Cannons, Starcannons and Plasma.

The only army's that I could see Thousand Sons lacking an advantage in would be Guard and possibly Orks. The reason being that these units can pound them at their effective range and ignore the benefit of their Inferno Bolts. Against all other army's they can be very effective, remember that AP3 not only ignores 3+, but also 4+. This means that Eldar Aspects, Tau Fire Warriors, Ork A'rd Boyz and Stormtroopers lose their advantage of a greater save, something that the army's pay a heavy price for.

All in all, Thousand Sons uses are more than a Marine Killer. They can function well against almost every army as an Elite Killer and Mobile Firebase.

[Deneris]

But now we look at one really expensive unit: 210 points for 6 marines and one rhino. IMO that is just way too much.

My conclusion: Too expensive to be used as footsloggers and still very expensive when mounted in a rhino. They cannot get the job done by themselves either way, they will have to team up with other units. They are fragile, and a very juicy target with rather easily accessible VPs.

I considered them, I still like the feel of them, but honestly: There are better units we can spend our points on.

Sad but true. I tend to use them as a rather expensive "anvil" to the rest of the army's "hammer. The most effective use of them that I've seen? Using a Slaaneshi sorcerer with the Lash to drag units into rapid fire range of a Sons squad- quite messy.

Otherwise... I'd recommend NOT taking a sorcerer to lead a Sons squad, as they tend to be, in my humble opinion, a waste of points- in 7 battles so far, not a single sorcerer has seen close combat. Using them just as an 85 point short-range lascannon is, frankly, a waste.

[Aun]

Otherwise... I'd recommend NOT taking a sorcerer to lead a Sons squad, as they tend to be, in my humble opinion, a waste of points- in 7 battles so far, not a single sorcerer has seen close combat. Using them just as an 85 point short-range lascannon is, frankly, a waste.

EXACTLY!!! You are not supposed to use them in this way. Bolt of Change is a Horrible power IMO, especially for a unit like this. The best power IMO is wind of Chaos. I have been using it for as long as I have been playing chaos and it has ALWAYS performed extremely well. It's range is within that of your Rubricks rapid fire range and can be used to mop up any survives. My Wind of Chaos has been known to wipe out entire Deathwing Squads that get to close (Happened twice at a RoT).
And in this edition they only get better. THEY CAN HURT VEHICLES!!!! EASILY!!!! for the amount of points it is, its a steal.

But now we look at one really expensive unit: 210 points for 6 marines and one rhino. IMO that is just way too much.

My conclusion: Too expensive to be used as footsloggers and still very expensive when mounted in a rhino. They cannot get the job done by themselves either way, they will have to team up with other units. They are fragile, and a very juicy target with rather easily accessible VPs.

I considered them, I still like the feel of them, but honestly: There are better units we can spend our points on.

WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT!?!?!

I will break this down.

But now we look at one really expensive unit: 210 points for 6 marines and one rhino. IMO that is just way too much.

Consider what you are buying. A 6 man unit that can lay down 12 Ap3 shots at maximum distance, practically immune to anti marine fire and a transport to protect against small arms fire. Chosen can do the same thing for cheaper you say? Well consider, Chosen with Plasma guns can kill themselves, have a much lower survivability rate and can only fire on the move within 12". If we consider the two units dueling we can tell who the winner will be. Thousand Sons will get a full turn more shooting, more shots, and a save against the plasma. They get even better with a sorcerer with Wind of Chaos. If you Wind the Chosen unit I can guarantee they will be dead by the end of the turn.

My conclusion: Too expensive to be used as footsloggers and still very expensive when mounted in a rhino. They cannot get the job done by themselves either way, they will have to team up with other units. They are fragile, and a very juicy target with rather easily accessible VPs.

You are correct, they are to expensive to be footslogers, but they can get the job done by themselves against the majority of enemy units. The only things they falter against is Hoards and Long Range guns.

They are fragile, and a very juicy target with rather easily accessible VPs

How do you figure they are "Fragile" and "Easily Accessible VP"? They are more resilient than a terminator squad (I have done the math) And can pack even more firepower, regretably they cannot have a Assault cannon, but they can take a cheaper transport and a sorcerer with Wind.

[Ahriman]

Otherwise... I'd recommend NOT taking a sorcerer to lead a Sons squad, as they tend to be, in my humble opinion, a waste of points- in 7 battles so far, not a single sorcerer has seen close combat. Using them just as an 85 point short-range lascannon is, frankly, a waste.

Well, you can't not take an aspiring sorceror, so it's a moot point if you want the unit at all. I'd agree that BoC is overpriced, and anyway S4AP3 teamed with S8AP1 is too schizophrenic a loadout for my tastes; Doombolt gives you a ranged hit that's good against the same targets you'd want the rubrics to be shooting at anyway, lowers the sorceror's price, and makes the squad even more dangerous against MEQs at midrange. It also bears note that the price of the sorceror or of a rhino are much more bearable with a larger unit- say, 10 models total, which makes maximum use of the rhino's capacity and gives them an expectation value to drop 7, count 'em, 7 MEQs with a rapid fire. Even against vanilla tac marines, that's an awful lot of pain; if you can manage to be shooting at jump pack assault marines, assault veterans, or any other 3+ armored rushers, they stand to easily make back half their points in a single shooting phase.

Nothing's going to make rubrics not be, as you say, a fragile and juicy target for massed dakka, but their astonishing ability to gun down rushing MEQs (and to withstand charges from heavy rushers- a force weapon, 4+ invulnerable saves against power weapons and fearless?!) makes them a tough-as-nails front line to discourage enemies from charging your firebase.

[33rd Sirican Redbacks]

All in all I like the new dex, but I would really love to see Cult armies return (Cult termies not just marked ones), Termies with MOT are awesome!, they can shrug off small arms, demolishers and railguns!

[Trogdor]

A 6 man unit that can lay down 12 Ap3 shots at maximum distance

Untrue. At maximum distance we still have only 5 shots.

How do you figure they are "Fragile" and "Easily Accessible VP"? They are more resilient than a terminator squad (I have done the math) And can pack even more firepower, regretably they cannot have a Assault cannon, but they can take a cheaper transport and a sorcerer with Wind.

Then you math is clearly flawed OR you got the rules wrong. Because you cannot take an inv. save after the armor failed.
Plague marines or Necrons on the other had ARE as resilient as terminators: A 3+ armour followed by a 4+ save (FNP, WBB) has the sam average to fail (1/6).
Thousand sons are just as tough as normal marines, only against high AP they  take only half as many casualties.

So they are as fragile as every marine, and the low numbers in the squad only add to this. Many VPs in a single and small unit always make juicy targets, especially when they pack some punch. And I think we all agree that TSs can dish some damage out on 12"

Bolt of Change is a Horrible power IMO, especially for a unit like this.

I second that.

and to withstand charges from heavy rushers- a force weapon, 4+ invulnerable saves against power weapons and fearless?!

That is ridiculous. Yes they have a powersword in the squad, yes they have inv. saves. But they still are only a handful of marines, the sheer amount of attacks gets them easily down. And Fearless will possibly add some extra wounds. All in all I say: keep them out of CC.

10 models total, which makes maximum use of the rhino's capacity and gives them an expectation value to drop 7, count 'em, 7 MEQs with a rapid fire.

Well, rhino, sorcerer with doombolt and 9 rubrics come in for 312 pts... that is 1/5 of a standard 1500-army. It is simply too costy, even for an average of seven marines that bite the ground.

All in all, Thousand Sons uses are more than a Marine Killer. They can function well against almost every army as an Elite Killer and Mobile Firebase.

So you will hunt down my crisis suits with your ksons, then? Not going to happen, range and JSJ will prevent it.
Or kill some elite orcs? Maybe even scarboyz? The chances for the kill are the same as for a marine, but one dead ork does not hurt much.
Or an elite-carnifex with twin devourers? One of the most used tyranid units. The TS will negate the armor, but only wound on 6... but for 312 pts you get a unit that will take 2,33 wounds of a monstrous creature for 114 pts and with 4 wounds total.
And for guard:  SOO many targets^^

Face it: TS are truely great against marines, esecially the rushing type. Or against necron phalanx. But other than that... inflexible, pricey and a juicy target.

[Snipper]

What will you do, when the enemy stops fireing his plasma- and laserweapons and starts fireing his autokannons, gauss cannons and so on?

As a necron player i would be glad if my opponent uses TS, they die as fast as normal marines, have no heavy weapons and i can kill the from 36".

Surely the TS are no bad unit, but there a so much better choices in the new chaos dex.

€: @Rhino: Don't forget that the will get pinned if their rhino is destroyed.

[Anton]

Heya,

To be honest I really don't know what all the "hype" is about the Thousand Sons. Yes they have AP3 Bolter's, yes they are good against Necrons and Marines, but you still have to wound on 4's! Which means in order to make the Squad worth their points you will have to get within Rapid Fire range, which is where a Rhino is needed, badly! Even then, they aren't that resilient. And against G.e.q's they are still technically Bolter's.

Too me, the Thousand Sons are just like a giant, expensive sponge, plodding their way up the battlefield and killing the odd Marine or 2. Sorry, but I will never take the Thousand Sons, they ooze that "Hype/OMFG!1! AP3 BOLTERZ1!21 GOTTA GET 10,00000 OF 'EM" type of unit which looks good in paper, and draws the punters in, but in practice are overpriced and undervalued.

Sorry, but I'm a Plague Marine man now!

@Rhino: Don't forget that the will get pinned if their rhino is destroyed.

They can't be pinned they're Fearless.

Surely the TS are no bad unit, but there a so much better choices in the new chaos dex.

*Cough* Plague Marines *Cough*

[Trogdor]

They can't be pinned they're Fearless.

They are not pinned, they are entangled

[Snipper]

Yes they have AP3 Bolter's, yes they are good against Necrons and Marines, but you still have to wound on 4's!

I think that TS are not a really good choice against Necron, even with AP3. Only 25-30", S4 and WBB, just expensive Marines...

€: Entangled, my fault.

[40kenthusiast]

The "Hype" is that they are AP 3 bolters...on a slow and purposeful unit, which has a 4+ invulnerable save. That's really great.

I prefer warptime for my sorcerers. Between the pistol, the melta bombs and the force weapon I get a lot of milage out of it.  In my experienced the enemy is desperate to silence the Ksons' bolters, and goes for melee.  Warptime makes them regret this.

[Snipper]

4+ inv is almost useless against many armys. Necron and Nids are examples for this. Even against plasma weapons thay are not "immune" it just takes more hits to kill them.

In close combat your Sorcerer has 3 attacks, 2,25hits, 1,68 dead marines... not so good for a 85(90 with bombs) pts model. Against a enemy CC-Unit this wont be enough to win the melee.

[40kenthusiast]

Responses:

4+ invulnerable is entirely useless occasionally.  You got that right.  Sometimes its priceless. I'm sure you've had units pie plated or hit by a plasma drop squad, or fired upon by an assault cannon.

When did I claim Ksons are "immune" to plasma weapons?  "" means you are quoting.  Who are you quoting from?

As for the fighting thing, let's do a little simulation, testing whether or not Ksons can handle enemy elite assaulters.  We'll use Raptors as the easiest way to test, since against slow assaulters the Ksons can back up and fire and it isn't a test.

Typical Ksons unit is 9, 8 and a sorcerer with warptime.  We'll say its an even 250 points, so 10 raptors will be our foe, give em an Asp champ with a power weapon and they have 2 plasma pistols. 2 reasonable units, right?

Raptors jump up to within 12 (if only within 13-18 Ksons will just move backwards and shoot them), shoot pistols at ksons. 8 shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound. 2 plasma shots, 1 hit, 1 wound, another unsaved wound (let's say). Ksons move up, rapid fire.  12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds. Raptors pass morale. Ksons charge into melee (stable platform so they can do so). Raptors and Ksons swing simo.  5 Raptors swing 10 times, 6 Ksons swing 12 times, raptors deal 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .8 unsaved wounds, Ksons deal 5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.  Raptor boss swings 3 times, 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, .38 unsaved wounds.  Sorcerer swings 4 times, hits 3, wounds 2.25. Raptors lose and next round they'll be ground up.

Play around with the simulation.  Spend the Raptors points on the Icon of Slaanesh or Khorne, change the power weapon out for a power fist.   Make sure to keep the points the same and increase the squad size, or decrease it. As long as the Ksons get the round of rapid fire and the charge it'll go in the Ksons favor.

Not convinced?  Fair enough.  Let's use a better assault squad.  How about some genestealers.  They've got enchanced carapace (not useful against AP 3, but to be honest have you ever seen stealers without this one?) So that's 12 stealers to get ~240 points.  They move up within 12" to keep the Ksons from backing up and ventilating them.  Ksons move up and rapid fire.  16 shots, 10 hits, 5 dead. Sorcerer shoots down another one with his warp-timed pistol, so 6 stealers left.  Ksons charge.  Stealers strike first.  12 swings gives 2 rends and 6 hits. 3 of the hits are wounds.  1 of the rends is unsaved, as is one of the normal armor saves.  This leaves 6 charging Ksons and the sorcerer.  Ksons swing 12 times, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 kills.  Sorcerer swings 4 times, hits 3, wounds 2.25.  Stealers have lost and next round they will get ground up.

Edit: Miscounted Ksons points, add one stealer and one raptor, outcome doesn't change significantly.

That ought to be fairly persuasive.  Ksons can handle themselves against elite assault units.  Key to their effectiveness is that the enemy has to end within 12" to ensure that if the Ksons back up, and this lets the Ksons get the charge off. This coupled with their ability to neuter the enemies boss man makes for a surprisingly tough unit. (the Ksons have a few weaknesses, sometimes they can't make the charge move even if the enemy is in range, due to SAP, and sometimes their boss can't make his psychic tests)

Main point:

Chaos has 2 troop choices able to move and shoot 24".  Noise Marines and Ksons.  Noise Marines cost a little more per man.  Ksons have to drag along a sorcerer.  Noise marines are less resilient unless they are in 4+ cover, in which case they lose  the "move and shoot" part of the role. Its a pretty even contest.

I'm a Necron player, just like you.  I'm stunned you can't see the advantages of moving and shooting 24".  Have you ever used Immortals?  Warriors?  Its like day and night. If you've never tried them go and proxy a unit, stat.  You'll never want to go back to the worthless rapid fire brick. They get Immortals-lite as a Troop Choice. Their fighting ability is a plus.  Their sorcery is a plus.  Even their invulnerable save is a plus.  Troops that move and shoot 24, and AP space marines, is the main dish.