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[Tyross (FT)]

If you're asking what I think you're asking then my answer essentially remains unchanged - the fact that a person has 250 posts and no karma does not imply that such a person has contributed nothing to the forum, and I am alarmed that you are holding such an attitude.  There is far more to the healthy life of an online community than the writing of essays.

I think you've got the karma system as it is currently being applied a little skewed. The first point of karma is essentially the "encouragement karma" for members who show willingness to help their fellow members, whether or not that's an essay or just some general pointers on how to paint a Tau better.

This does not make karma pointless because karma becomes harder to get as a member get more, but that's beside the point.

[enderwiggin]

This does not make karma pointless because karma becomes harder to get as a member get more, but that's beside the point.

That's not really entirely true... 
There are a few things universally accepted as karma worthy that you can get over and over easily enough, you just generally have to be skilled. 

On the subject of the first karma point. My "encouragement" karma point definitely set me straight. I didn't care that others had tens of times the number I did, I was determined to do right and get more. Most of the time, anyways. 

[Unholy Harbinger]

I agree with FT here as there are quite a few members that lost acess just due to posts as they were under 100. How have they really contributed much in 100 posts in terms of 40K help compared to nearly every other member? Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.

Which is another thing... I think people should stop givving people a higher post count just so they can get into the enclave as there is a y'xa'uuk RESTRICTION not a GUIDLINE, when doing a test for something like an A level thy don't bloody go " Well he has written a few sentences let's just imgaine the rest were good and give him an A". What I'm trying to get at is that the system only works if people actually follow it and that means stop avoiding the restrictions and shitting on those of us that have actually earned their acess without asking or spamming our way instead by helping out.

Also one thing about Karma is it is ridiculously inconsistent. I have seen small pictures some one drew in 5 minutes on paint get Karma when some tacticas/ really well painted minis don't. There needs to be a more consistent use of it.

[Mr. Universe (Jayne)]

Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.

So people like me for example, who have made over 1000 non enclave posts that people such as yourself, haven't deemed worthy of karma, aren't helpful.

How much have I contributed in those 1000 posts in the 40k section of the forum? Apparently nothing according to my Karma up untill a few hours ago, when i recieved my encoragement Karma.

Who is to say that welcoming new members and pointing them in the right direction for the first time, is less of a contribution than a few pictures of a well painted mini? Don't get me wrong, we have some of the best painters and customisers I have ever seen here at TO, but do those pictures contribute in the same way as the guys who just help out newer members, of course not, but both are essential to the running of this site, and both actions are Karma worthy.

[enderwiggin]

Also I kind of like the karma restriction as it just ensures that the person has helped so long as it doesn't start being given away to allow acess.

So people like me for example, who have made over 1000 non enclave posts that people such as yourself, haven't deemed worthy of karma, aren't helpful.

How much have I contributed in those 1000 posts in the 40k section of the forum? Apparently nothing according to my Karma up untill a few hours ago, when i recieved my encoragement Karma.

Who is to say that welcoming new members and pointing them in the right direction for the first time, is less of a contribution than a few pictures of a well painted mini? Don't get me wrong, we have some of the best painters and customisers I have ever seen here at TO, but do those pictures contribute in the same way as the guys who just help out newer members, of course not, but both are essential to the running of this site, and both actions are Karma worthy.

Welcoming new members shouldn't really be done with anything more in mind than helping them get around and acclimated to the site. I believe I've made some very good introductions and Tau-centric suggestions there but my copy/paste suggestion that I've been fine tuning for months was never made with karma in mind, merely to get people up to speed and running as quickly as possible to use our full site capabilities.

[Mr. Universe (Jayne)]

Quite so, and you should be applauded for your efforts. I didnt mean it to sound like I was saying "I help new people, give me Karma." What I ment was, whos to say what matters for Karma? Things like NAVARROS Phantom Titan, took years of his life to finish, and it wasnt even his Titan, that deserves Karma, but is it any more deserving than the guys who don't have his level of skill? Or Circus' ability to write amazing fluff for example? There are many people like myself who simply can't do these things, modelling, painting, tacticas etc, that score the Karma points, so what are we to do with this new ruling of X posts and X Karma for enclave.

Like i said, in over 1000 posts, nothing I said, debated, or posted pics of was good enough to get Karma, so now, despite all that I have tried to do, Im to be cut off from the enclave.

Although I have been given my "Entrance Fee" as it stands.

[enderwiggin]

I have never posted fluff to the site or even done a fraction of the amazing things some of our members have. To be frank, my level of painting will never be up to the Golden Daemon wins that some of our member have under their belts (curious if you guys know about them really, some don't post any more or even posted their winning work here...).

It is hard though to not be able to do all that stuff, but the life blood and basis of the website is on the shoulders of posters like you and I whom are solid, even if we're not remarkably talented posters in the ways you're describing.

Much of my karma has come from recalling and producing information at the right time that I've gathered from the net or books over the years or just personal playing experience. Nothing special, but again, just solid posting habits. 

[Raksha]

So what happens to people like me?

The negative karma is from back in 2005, when I smiley spammed. I'll admit it was well deserved, but since then I've done nothing that merited a karma point and have become more of a lurker in more recent times.

[SILK]

That is precisely what I was aiming for when I came up with these rules - this website is a wargaming forum. Not a watered down version of 4chan / Something aweful. The enclave and it's smaller boards are a privelege, not a right. They are an extra award for contributing to the forum.

[Tau-killer]

I think you've got the karma system as it is currently being applied a little skewed. The first point of karma is essentially the "encouragement karma" for members who show willingness to help their fellow members, whether or not that's an essay or just some general pointers on how to paint a Tau better.

This whole "encouragement karma" concept sounds rather wishy-washy at best.  I'd be interested to know, for instance, what the concrete difference is between a post that is worthy of normal karma and a post that is worthy only of "encouragement karma."  I bet that if we asked ten different moderators that question, we'd get ten completely different and inconsistent answers.

Therefore, the idea that this method of "encouragement karma" is some kind of objective method of distinguishing between members that are worthy of the Enclave and members that aren't is utterly absurd.  You've even acknowledged this yourself by saying that if you (in your own subjective opinion) consider a member worthy of the Enclave, you'll give him the necessary karma point anyway! 

Furthermore, given the fact that we now know from the objective evidence that the Enclave is in fact about as small relative to the rest of the forum as it ever has been, I'd be interested to know why there is a need for these measures anyway. 

[SILK]

The difference between encouragemnet karma and regular karma, as far as I am concerened, is that encouragement karma is handed out when it is a "maybe" moment. If one of their posts is teetering on getting a karma point in comparison with those who gain them after the first then I'd reward one. It is not a freebie karma point at all.

Therefore, the idea that this method of "encouragement karma" is some kind of objective method of distinguishing between members that are worthy of the Enclave and members that aren't is utterly absurd.

How is it absurd? The entire point between introducing the karma point is encourage a more solid piece of contribution to the forum rather than the suggestion that you can spam your way to the 250.

Furthermore, given the fact that we now know from the objective evidence that the Enclave is in fact about as small relative to the rest of the forum as it ever has been, I'd be interested to know why there is a need for these measures anyway.

Becuase it is still too big. I know - I moderate it. And as I said before, this forum is a wargaming forum. The enclave should be thought of as a green room, a place to relax after you've given your contribution for the day. Not in replacement to the main part of the forum and turning the rest of the 40k boards into a place that you just hop into when you fancy a nosey.

[Mr. Universe (Jayne)]

The difference between encouragemnet karma and regular karma, as far as I am concerened, is that encouragement karma is handed out when it is a "maybe" moment. If one of their posts is teetering on getting a karma point in comparison with those who gain them after the first then I'd reward one. It is not a freebie karma point at all.

Its for maybe moments. Ok fair enough. As a Mod, can u see what I got my Encouragement Karma for? Tell me if its a maybe moment.

The idea that its hard to get to 250 posts and NOT get Karma is laughable, i got to over 1000 posts, all apparently Spam.

Dont get me wrong SILK, I have every respect for what you and the other Mods, GMods and FT have to do to keep this place going, and to keep us all regulated when we go off on a tangent, and I applaude you all for your efforts, but i think the suggested systems for access simply doesn't take into account alot of things.

Raise the post count to 400 or something, nobody is going to spam there way to 400 without being noticed by the Mods. But bringing a Karma requirement into it is suggesting that Karma is a reflection of that persons worth here. And while most of the current Enclavites have much Karma to go around, not all of us are so lucky.

[Tiwaz]

  Damn, I feel like an old man looking at this topic again

  I had a nice long response to this but then realized that it didn't really make sense, so I'm going to attempt to be brief.  Back when I had my primary profile (member number 2222) there was a point where The Enclave part of the forum was getting more posts than the 40k part of the forums.  I'm pretty sure this was around mid to late 2007, and originally that was why I supported the Post Minimum for entrance into the Enclave, we were simply being spammed out of our minds, I literally can recall several people who joined solely for the Enclave, didn't even play 40k or any of that jazz.  Being part of a wargaming forum and not the other way around, you should be able to understand why this isn't exactly acceptable.  Now I didn't see any numbers afterward but judging from how much easier my job got as a mod I reasonably assumed that we had fixed the problem (albeit, temporarily from the sounds of this thread).

  So now I just have to ask, is the Enclave getting bloated again and we actually need this boost or is it just one of those ideas that sounds good on paper?  You know something I just thought of that could be interesting...each month we should have FT give us statistics on the activity of every board overall, that way as a community we can decide on what course of action to take, if any. Hell, we should start with a comparison of when we started the post minimum and now to see how that goes. I will agree on the definite action bit though, the Rules should be enforced as such regardless of how much we like or dislike a certain member.

  On the karma bit though...

 

Its for maybe moments. Ok fair enough. As a Mod, can u see what I got my Encouragement Karma for? Tell me if its a maybe moment.

The idea that its hard to get to 250 posts and NOT get Karma is laughable, i got to over 1000 posts, all apparently Spam.

1) Just look at the bold and say I can't laugh at that.
2)  Hey bub, I was at a good 1,600 before I got my first encouragement karma, I hold the record

Also one thing about Karma is it is ridiculously inconsistent. I have seen small pictures some one drew in 5 minutes on paint get Karma when some tacticas/ really well painted minis don't. There needs to be a more consistent use of it.

Have you tried using the "Report to Moderator" function?  It is for good and bad, so if you see a tactica or a mini that deserves some moderator attention then give it a whirl, don't take the "somebody else will do it" crowd mentality.  Moderators don't have their eyes everywhere, so any bit you can do to help is appreciated.

[Sidstyler]

Well, with this new policy, you have just destroyed that ethos.  Karma now means more than just personal pride.  Now it buys you privilege - namely access to a very substantial separate board.  You have opened the door to elitism and all the other such negative traits which plague so many other internet forums.  This was never what karma was intended to be used for, and it is very sad to see it being used for this purpose.

Exactly. Needless to say I strongly disagree with this change as well. Not only is it pointless, but you'll lose members over it.

Apparently, though, that seems to be exactly the intended effect. People like me simply aren't wanted because, for whatever reason, you guys have got it into your heads that the Enclave crowd is solely responsible for everything wrong with your forum, and simple coexistence is just out of the question now.

If you're dead set on fixing this supposed "problem" then I say cut the y'xa'uuk klkn and just delete the Enclave and all of it's child boards. It's a much better idea than turning it into a "privilege" and granting access to only the elite few who have proven themselves "worthy". Because that's just what this site needed, more elitism, more favorites...more reasons to simply call it quits and move on to greener pastures/other forums with less of a "Heil fuhrer!" feel to them.

Becuase it is still too big. I know - I moderate it. And as I said before, this forum is a wargaming forum. The enclave should be thought of as a green room, a place to relax after you've given your contribution for the day. Not in replacement to the main part of the forum and turning the rest of the 40k boards into a place that you just hop into when you fancy a nosey.

So you're pretty much turning TO membership into a part-time job then.

lol...no thanks. I post 40k content when I feel I have something worth posting, and if that's not good enough for you (it clearly isn't since you basically described me in that paragraph) then I'll just find another forum that doesn't mind having me around, I guess. Dakka doesn't seem to care one way or the other, and I find Dakka is a better place to get my 40k fix anyway, and hell, even there I mostly only post in the Discussions and Rumors forum because the actual lists and tactical advice there are garbage (I go to yet another website if I want some real 40k advice). I'm a casual player in the extreme, I almost never get to play because it's about an hour's drive to the nearest store and the only guy I ever get to play is my brother. And we each only have one army, so those would be some pretty boring battle reports. In other words, I don't play enough for my tactical advice to be worth a shtlk, I don't really know or care enough about the fluff to write fan fiction, and I'm not the best painter and actually haven't painted anything for a very long time. I don't really have much at all to contribute, so I guess I'm just wasting space.

Anyway, like I've said, I think it's just a bad idea all around, and it's not going to change anything. You can't force people to post 40k-related content if they don't want to or just can't (I know I for one couldn't force myself to write an article a day about it). Not only that but I think you're greatly exaggerating the Enclave "problem", or just looking for someone to blame.

[Tim.]

I don't really understand why there is a problem in the first place. Ok, so you don't want people signing up just to use the Enclave. That's fine, but seeing as how without the necessary number of posts it's impossible to even see the Enclave I really doubt anyone now-a-days signs up just to use the Enclave.

So... um... what's the big deal? The Enclave has too many boards and is bigger and more expansive than other areas on the site? Then, you know, get rid of some of the boards. The Science and Technology Board never really goes anywhere, neither does the Artwork board for that matter. If you don't like them, remove them. They are the problem, not the people why use them. This seems like another way to demonise those who use the Enclave for no apparent reason other than elitism. And yes, it is elitism.

When I first joined this site I cared a lot about 40K, but I didn't know what I was doing, I was young and I never really played, I couldn't write for feth and I couldn't (and still can't) paint either. I was not in any kind of state to contribute to the site, but I never got attacked for not doing so. Then when I started hanging about in the Enclave more I actually did start contributing to the site. I wrote reviews in the music board when it was introduced, I wrote fun stories in the Enclave, I tried working on projects, and it felt good to be helping where I could. That's right, I actually contributed far more to this site through the Enclave than through the 40K areas. I have 19 positive karma and one smite that I personally asked for and according to the karma log the only bits of karma I ever earned in the 40K sections was for doing well in those quiz things.

For me, that is good enough. I am happy that I could contribute to the site and help the people here, even if it wasn't in the manner you maybe wanted me to contribute in. But this seems like a way to essentially attack people like me who have done so, by saying that the contributions I have made are far less worthy and important than the contributions others have made just because theirs dealt with 40K whilst mine were album reviews or something else. I find that quite insulting frankly, just as much time and effort went into the things I produced.