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[Tyross (FT)]

As some of you may have noticed, the access to the off-topic area (aka the Enclave) has recently changed.

To access it now, you need:-

• 1 positive point of karma
• 250 posts

There may be some changes in the coming weeks, and I'll update this space if that does happen.

Thanks for your time.

[Circus]

This is definitely a step in the right direction. I'd be inclined to raise the karma required and remove the posts required altogether, but this way does make more sense than the last system.

[Masked Thespian]

Will people with less than those requirements still be able to request access?

[Tyross (FT)]

Will people with less than those requirements still be able to request access?

I don't see why not, but they would have to ask one of the Enclave mods about it.

[Mr. Universe (Jayne)]

No disrespect intended FT, but even though Iv made over 1000 non enclave posts, by this new system, I would not get enclave access because nobody has found any of my contributions to be good enough to deserve karma. This system means that my Enclave access is based on how good a member other members think I am, and based purely on Karma, im not good enough.

Or am I grasping the wrong end of the stick here? If so then apologies for this mini rant.

[Tau-killer]

This whole policy is at best a pointless step that will change nothing at all, and at worst a dreadful step in the wrong direction.

Let me justify the 'dreadful' first.  A strong ethos has always existed on Tau-Online that karma does not equal status.  It does not buy you forum privileges and/or positions.  It is a personal sign of personal achievement only, and when it comes to day to day life on the forums, the member with 0 karma points is just as respected, just as valued and just as welcome as the member with +1, + 10, + 30 and + 102 karma points.

Well, with this new policy, you have just destroyed that ethos.  Karma now means more than just personal pride.  Now it buys you privilege - namely access to a very substantial separate board.  You have opened the door to elitism and all the other such negative traits which plague so many other internet forums.  This was never what karma was intended to be used for, and it is very sad to see it being used for this purpose.

Admittedly, you could argue that +1 karma isn't very much from a practical point of view, and arguably you might be right.  But it is quite obvious to me that if this dreadful policy is allowed to stand, it won't end here.  Twelve months down the line we'll have seen it increase, maybe first to +2, then maybe to +5 and then to +10 and so on.  Elitism breeds elitism, and once you open the door to it, it is incredibly difficult to stop.

So, to put it more specifically, The Man They call Jayne is just as worthy of posting in the Enclave as I am, as MT is, as Circus is, and as any other such member is.  This policy says that he isn't.  So the policy is wrong.

Now I move on to justifying the 'pointless.'  To make my own position clear, I shall quote Khanaris from another topic.  The emphasis is mine:

  we don't particularly want to draw in a lot of new members with no interest in contributing to the rest of the forums.
...

It is not our intention to block off the Enclave to anyone has been active there in the past, or indeed to any newer members who would like access.

This passage demonstrates the confused and muddled thinking that frankly many staff members and moderators have consistently demonstrated ever since the original 250 post policy was enacted.  My response to them and to those that agree with them is simple:  you are trying to have your cake and eat it.  You cannot give Enclave access to all new members who want it, yet at the same time claim that you are cracking down on new members who have no interest in contributing to the rest of the forum.  It's one or the other - choose which one you want.

The problem, FT, is that your answer to MT that people can still request access if they don't meet the requirements demonstrates that you are continuing to subscribe to this muddled thinking as outlined above.  You must however acknowledge the reality that there is no point whatsoever in having these rules if you are going to bend them for a large majority of those who ask.  If you do so, then the rules will make no tangible difference whatsoever.  So why even bother having them?

Furthermore, it can be no coincidence that this crackdown has occurred at the very same time at which we have seen the introduction of the most epically pointless Enclave subboard ever created.  Now I knew exactly what its creation would lead to.  I said, barely two weeks ago, that it would result in the resuming of whinging about the Enclave being too big.  I said that that would result in further Enclave restrictions.  And hey presto - look what we've got:  further Enclave restrictions with possible additional ones in the coming weeks.  I warned you about this FT - and you completely ignored me.

Now, it's easy to grumble and complain, so bearing that in mind, let me offer some constructive ideas as to what I'd actually suggest doing:

1.  Remove the Culinary and Cooking Board. 

This one should be a no brainer.  The board is unnecessary.  It's pointless.  There's no demand for it.  It's clearly annoyed a lot of the moderators - so do the forum a favour and consign it to the dustbin.  If people want to discuss recipes (not that they ever seemed to particularly want to discuss them before) there is absolutely no reason why they can't do so in the Enclave itself.

2.  Scrap the +1 karma requirement for Enclave access.

Another no-brainer - for the reasons given above.

3.  Replace the 250 post count requirement with the following:  All members who register after the 7th of January 2010 will need 250 posts to access the Enclave.  All other members will be unaffected.

Frankly, you should have done the equivalent of this back in 2008, and then we probably wouldn't have this situation now.  My suggestion would ensure that new members are signing up because they want to join a Warhammer forum, but it would also ensure that members who signed up before then aren't penalised retrospectively.  Thus fairness and practicality are combined.  And, needless to say, there would be no need or incentive whatsoever to bend the rules for members who join after this date.

[Nox]

TK kinda has a point about the futility of setting a threshold policy that anyone can get around just by asking to be exempted. However, I do agree that you need to do something if you want to claim that the board is a 40K site first and foremost. Personally, I like this idea.

All members who register after the 7th of January 2009 will need 250 posts to access the Enclave.  All other members will be unaffected.

[Tau-killer]

Sorry, I meant January 2010, not 2009.  I'm so used to writing the latter that I completely missed the mistake.

However, I do agree that you need to do something if you want to claim that the board is a 40K site first and foremost.

Just for clarification, I do broadly agree with this.  What I don't agree with is the methods that are currently being used to achieve this result.

[Zenai]

I'm okay about the minimum Karma requirement (though now I have to be careful who, when and how I give out the Karmas); it does require a member to contribute to the forum.

I ain't too sure about the minimum post count; I can rake that number up within a month. I would suggest using a time period maybe say members need to spend at least a year in addition to Post Count. I still see members who are here for quite awhile but still lacks in the proper posting department.

Cooking and Culinary Board: Bad idea *Period*

[Tau-killer]

I'm okay about the minimum Karma requirement (though now I have to be careful who, when and how I give out the Karmas); it does require a member to contribute to the forum.

The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.

[Tyross (FT)]

Furthermore, it can be no coincidence that this crackdown has occurred at the very same time at which we have seen the introduction of the most epically pointless Enclave subboard ever created.  Now I knew exactly what its creation would lead to.  I said, barely two weeks ago, that it would result in the resuming of whinging about the Enclave being too big.  I said that that would result in further Enclave restrictions.  And hey presto - look what we've got:  further Enclave restrictions with possible additional ones in the coming weeks.  I warned you about this FT - and you completely ignored me.

Actually, I would like to point out that the Enclave restrictions were in place, but not formally announced, before the Cooking board was even suggested...

Proof of this (check the dates on the various posts):
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,91427.0.html - Enclave access becoming restricted and the "after effects"
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,91738.0.html - Suggestion of the new board

I put in the new board, in part, because of the increased restrictions, even if that decision was in error (but then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?).

You must however acknowledge the reality that there is no point whatsoever in having these rules if you are going to bend them for a large majority of those who ask.

Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.

The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.

So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?

And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.

[doctor_wu]

It is hard to get karma if you are not a good writer though. Dac has told me my posts are hard to understand not that I am not trying to contribute to the forum but rather my contributions are not understood so I do not get credit for them.

We did discuss stuff some times before in the enclave like the top ramen thread a few years ago.

Furthermore, it can be no coincidence that this crackdown has occurred at the very same time at which we have seen the introduction of the most epically pointless Enclave subboard ever created.  Now I knew exactly what its creation would lead to.  I said, barely two weeks ago, that it would result in the resuming of whinging about the Enclave being too big.  I said that that would result in further Enclave restrictions.  And hey presto - look what we've got:  further Enclave restrictions with possible additional ones in the coming weeks.  I warned you about this FT - and you completely ignored me.

Actually, I would like to point out that the Enclave restrictions were in place, but not formally announced, before the Cooking board was even suggested...

Proof of this (check the dates on the various posts):
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,91427.0.html - Enclave access becoming restricted and the "after effects"
http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,91738.0.html - Suggestion of the new board

I put in the new board, in part, because of the increased restrictions, even if that decision was in error (but then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?).

You must however acknowledge the reality that there is no point whatsoever in having these rules if you are going to bend them for a large majority of those who ask.

Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.

The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.

So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?

And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.

I was along until several hundred posts before I had one positive karma point and it was about a year after I joinded the forums but those were days when I had acess to the enclave before. Also this makes karma less specail.

Also in the seeing if they contributed is it a reversal on not being able to flag old posts? Originally  back when flag for mods was first thought up Gada answered that you cannot flag old posts really.

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php/topic,48298.30.html
read after my post.

[Majonga]

Well, in my case I was a member for almost a year when I got my first Karma point, and I'm sure I had a lot more than 250 posts then. Did we even have enclave restrictions in 2006? Not sure. If we did I never noticed

The new regulations don't really effect me at all, but I have a question. Obviously you want to limit the number of members who don't partake in the Forums, and have signed on only to use the enclave. However there a few players on the Serious role-play forums, who are friends of long time members, who essentially only have a membership so they can play in some of the more serious strategy games.

 I am just thinking that with the crackdown these members will lose their enclave access (which they originally had to ask for anyway), and worryingly to me, won't "deserve" to get it unless they become mildly serious posters, which isn't going to happen. Obviously I am only really referring to one or two members here, but if their enclave access is cut it could be a real bummer for the SR board.

[Tau-killer]

Did we even have enclave restrictions in 2006? Not sure. If we did I never noticed

There weren't any restrictions then.  2008 was when it started.

Who said the rule bending was for the majority who ask? The three members who have so far come forward to ask have all had access previously and were either running Enclave games or were long time members anyway. If a member who registered yesterday came forward and asked, then they wouldn't get access.

I say that it's for the majority because that's how it's been since 2008.  Ever since then, you and Khanaris and others have consistently said and hinted that if you want Enclave access, just ask and you're practically guaranteed to get it.  Khanaris' post on the (now disappeared) 'Enclave and Post Count' topic famously ended with 'there is little reason why your request [to join the Enclave] would be refused.'  His subsequent post that I quoted in my former post demonstrates that this attitude hasn't changed at all.

Now, given your example, you sound to be doing what I suggested doing in my previous post:  generally granting access to current members and making new members gain 250 posts first.  So I ask again, why not adopt my suggestion officially.  It's practically what you're doing anyway, and it will end the current situation of having a rule which you're bending and breaking all the time!

The fact that a member has no positive karma does not imply that they have contributed nothing to the forum.

So you really think that members who have been around long enough to accumulate 250 posts who don't have at least one positive karma?

If you're asking what I think you're asking then my answer essentially remains unchanged - the fact that a person has 250 posts and no karma does not imply that such a person has contributed nothing to the forum, and I am alarmed that you are holding such an attitude.  There is far more to the healthy life of an online community than the writing of essays.

And yes, I do know there are a few that have slipped through the gaps previously and if they are that bothered about Enclave access, they could ask for Enclave access at which point, it would be a simple matter of checking their post history and finding out if they have contributed to the forums in some measure and giving them the karma to unlock the Enclave.

Hang on.

So if I've understood you correctly, if you deem someone to be worthy of Enclave access, yet they don't have any karma - you're going to give them karma so that, under these rules, they can be let in?

Firstly, by handing out karma for nothing, you've just made karma worthless.  And furthermore, we're back to the same point about the utter pointlessness of imposing rules if you're going to repeatedly bend and break them.  Surely the whole point of imposing the +1 karma rule is that (in your view) karma is some objective standard by which the suitability of a member for posting in the Enclave can be judged.  But you've just said that you will happily give someone karma if you deem them worthy - thus demonstrating that karma itself is not the be all and end all when it comes to judging the said suitability.  Therefore - why are you even bothering to impose it as a rule?  It is a complete waste of time - as well as being incredibly dangerous, as I set out in my former post.  You didn't even try to refute that part of my argument so I can only conclude that I am completely right on that specific issue.

In this conclusion, this only serves to further demonstrate that the +1 karma rule is utterly pointless and should be removed immediately.

[Thantos]

[ ]

I am in two minds here.

I can see the logic in restricting enclave access.

We have a buzzing community here full of interesting and characterful folks and this is non more apparent than in the enclave (characterful: Please read: - Eccentric, mad, unique). Because of this, members may solely post in the enclave about non-hobby related issues all the time, not contributing to TO as a whole.
And having too many of these enclavites does create a clique among TO'ers.

Having a post and karma requirement, i would argue is more screening than it is elitism. The concept of screening people from the enclave is a step in the right direction to prevent it growing and absorbing us all in a wave of unstoppable shtlk and spam, if perhaps this method of going about it is not perfect yet.

Spending 95% of your posts in enclave, Id say, is generally frowned up in a hobby forum like this. But you cant really punish people for being friendly and talking about day to day garbage, nor can you easily prevent them doing so while a board such as the enclave exists.

While some enclave threads are pretty funny, witty or entertaining, I have noticed more and more plain klkn to be honest.
And why a separate subforum for cooking? O_o No disrespect to the people that supported it, but come on people?! "Gardening and Horticulture" anyone? "Interior design and DIY"?

With "Culinary and Cooking", on some occasions, getting more posts per day than the "Showcase" and "Painting" forums combined - this makes Thantos sad 

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