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Storm troopers, Whats the point?
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 18:14   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Storm troopers, Whats the point?

Ive been flicking through my codex again today and i had a good look at storm troopers. I myself have 10 of the classic Stormie's with hellguns and 10 unassembled kasarkins, and i really like the models but i just cant justify spending the points on them, especially when veterans squads are cheaper, can have more special weapons and are scoring.

Basically i want to know how everyone uses their stormtroopers effectively and how this can best be translated into a high points cost mech army?
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 18:46   #2 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

First off try here.

Secondly, overall, Stormtroopers are more tactically flexible due to their missions (since you choose which mission they are using on deployment). Basically, they help crack the tough nuts, storm objectives, clear enemies off objectives (with support), conduct surgical strikes, and can act as distractions. In Mech armies, they can act as the tip of a spear, a distraction unit, or once again, a surgical strike.
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 18:51   #3 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

I myself don't favour Storm Troopers for a number of reasons. That said, they have their uses.

You're always going to be getting more sheer killing power out of a group of guardsmen over Storm Troopers. They are certainly individually stronger but when you're looking at fielding three times as many basic infantry as you are Storm Troopers, the math just doesn't add up.

Why take them then? Storm Troopers have advantages regular troops don't, and they function exactly as the fluff would make them out to be. Storm Troopers are not regular soldiers. They're elite commandos, the kind you dont hurl at objectives, the kind you utilize for very specific missions. They are the scalpel to the regular grunt's hammer. This means two things: Storm Troopers are more mobile. Storm Troopers are more scary.

on the first note, Storm Troopers are a lot more mobile than guardsmen. In addition to the same Chimera options they have considerable strength in their deployment special rules and are almost designed to go hand in hand with valkyries and vendettas. One key advantage is price; when utilizing mechanized infantry, your troop carrier is a fixed cost. It's job is transportation. Guardsmen and Storm Troopers both pay the same for a Chimera or Valkyrie. However, by taking stronger troops, you are cramming a bigger percentage of your military resources into the same vehicle, this means you are spending those points better, you waste fewer points on extraneous transports and end up with a more efficient force. By the same token, this means you are capable of rapidly deploying a stronger force in any given location over regulars, this gives you a considerably more deadly element in terms of force projection (which is how the US and most other modern countries determine military strength, so clearly there's some sense to it)

On the second note, Storm Troopers are as much a weapon in terms of force concentration as they are a psychological weapon. We've already established that a group of Storm Troopers is a well oiled machine, they always are deployed with a certain purpose in mind, and they will always be quite efficient at what they're intended to do. Because of that, when someone plunks down a few Storm Troopers, the mind will always wander to what they are intended for. You can be sure that your enemy is up to no good with them, and this effects the course of a battle. You or your enemy will watch them like a hawk, attempting to either destroy them or deny them their objective, which in and of itself is a very valid use for them. It keeps the enemy on their feet and second guessing their moves and your intentions, which is a frightening weapon, even more so than being able to deep strike and burn out a tank with meltas virtually anywhere at any given time.
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 20:24   #4 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

But are vetts not a more practical option? the only advantage i can see to the stormies is their battle mission which i accept is usefull but i think actually that the storm trooper is redundant, just like all the guard elites really. i mean who plays with any of the guard elites any more? i sometimes bring ogryns because they are great, but only if i have points to make up, at the end of the day the really powerfull units in the guard codex are found in the fast attack and heavy support slots and the elites are, i think it is fair to say; Overshadowed
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Old 25 Apr 2010, 22:42   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

are vets more practical? yes, in most cases, but again you're probably thinking about overall combat potential. Storm Troopers derive a lot of their usefulness form being able to do things like hop in a valkyrie, move flat out 18 inches (or is it 24? can never remember) deep strike out almost on top of a tank and jam three point blank melta beams down its tailpipe. Or they infiltrate into a nearby bush, pop out and cover a couple units in templates and ap3 gunfire, pinning them for their first turn. Again, there's also the consideration that when you bring out those storm troopers, your enemy is going to be paranoid you'll be pulling crazy stunts like that and will act differently.

as far as the Elites section goes, yeah, the Imperial Guard doesn't have too much going for it compared to their Heavy Support or Fast Attack choices, but they do have a few good units. Sanctioned Psykers come to mind, they have plenty of nasty tricks up their sleeves and can really do a lot of damage if employed properly. Ratlings, while not as mentionable as psykers, do also have quite a few things going for them and can be employed to great effect as well. (perhaps even in tandem. consider a group of psykers can take a units leadership down to, potentially, base minimum. then a couple shots from ratlings and the unit is pinned almost by default. psykers can also, potentially, bring out twinlinked strength 9 ap1 large blast templates, if you play your cards right. thats not really much to sneeze at)

EDIT: oh yeah, totally forgot the other big thing about sanctioned psykers. pair them up with a Culexus assassin and each squad near him increases his armour piercing doom assault gun by 9 shots. So load up a pair of psyker squads in chimeras and keep them behind him, you have two assault large blasts inside AV12 (which dont count towards weapon limits for moving combat speed) and something like an assault 20 ap 2 strength 5 (i think its str 5) gun. Maybe take along an inquisitor that can simply cause enemies to take morale checks on their now Ld 2 from Weaken Resolve. i maintain, the guard elites section isnt completely devoid of value.
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Old 26 Apr 2010, 19:32   #6 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

That last bit sounds like a very dirty trick, and i think considering i run vendettas in my army's that allready get called cheesy, pulling a move like that would just get me the power gamer tag for life.
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Old 26 Apr 2010, 19:54   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

If you just want to cram a lot of SW's into your squads, you won't like Stormtroopers. I often try to take one squad in every list I make. They are amazing inside Valks. I can deploy them anywhere on the map, and their ap3 weapons are great to drop behind unprotected units and unloading. The key with Stormtroopers is their missions, and their ap3 weaponry. You don't want them if you just play static list. If you enjoy playing with strategy in your games then you really can't find a better unit that Stormtroopers.
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Old 27 Apr 2010, 16:17   #8 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

as much as I've been arguing for storm troopers on this thread, I would like to point out that while their ap3 guns are nice, storm troopers will, all in all, still be outgunned by regular infantry. ap3 is all well and good, but the best armour save it negates is, obviously, MEQ (so anything weaker than MEQ you're wasting resources on). The thing is that MEQ saves will stop 2 out of 3 shots, and a storm trooper is more than 3 times as expensive as a regular guardsman, so were you to simply take regular lasguns by sheer weight of numbers you're putting on more wounds (of course storm troopers are higher ballistic skill which makes them hit more often, but guardsmen have more range and are, again, less than 1/3 the price so it's roughly even. then you get into things like First Rank Fire which storm troopers can't use... it really is about paying for 3 squads of troopers so you can concentrate 2 squads of troopers worth of power into a nice little mobile package)
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Old 27 Apr 2010, 16:29   #9 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

I think its worth mentioning that some folks seem to over-analyze the S3 of their guns. They actually do very well against things like Eldar Aspect warriors and Sisters of Battle. I wouldn't call targeting, say, a group of Warriors a 'waste' either, to be perfectly honest. Being able to deny most infantry their armor save in the game is (to me) a very good tool.
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Old 27 Apr 2010, 19:17   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Storm troopers, Whats the point?

My gripe about these guys is that I can't take the as troop choices. I can see why I would use them but veterans can score and these guys can't. Ok I'll compare the two for you. I'm not concedering special characters in this.

Ok with carapace armour and same bs the elites cost 6 points more. What do I get from those six points.

- ability to ds
- infiltrate
- scout
- krak grenades
- ap 3 weapon
- extra attack

So you can for example sit on an objective before the game starts. Can have a free move before the game starts. Can deepstrike shooting your rapid fire weapons and so forth. Also you can take out weak rear armour vehicles as well.

IMO I think this unit should be used with a chimera instead of a valkerie. I rather put vets or special teams in a valkerie. But with these guys in a chimera you can outflank or move up puffing smoke before the game starts.
Also in a chimera you can have 10 ap3 shots shooting at the enemy while safely tucked away I'm a chimera.

If they were troop choices I'll use them. But since they can't score I rather use veterans that can. I really can't see the use of the elites unless I'm playing a fluffy list. The points don't bother me it's the fact I can't take them as troops is why I don't use them.
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