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Chicken and egg question
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 08:53   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Chicken and egg question

If a unit fails a pinning/morale roll, which takes preference?

Regimental Standard or Summary Execution

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Andrew
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 10:18   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

Regimental Standard.

If still failing, Summery Execution.
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 10:51   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

But there lies the problem.

Both rules are triggered by a failed check.

Standard, if you fail reroll.
Execution, if you fail, shoot someone and reroll.

But you can't reroll a reroll, so only one can take preference, so which is it?

Andrew
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 11:23   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

I would suggest that in such a situation, where both rules have an equal right to be used, then you should always roll a d6 to decide (1-3 = Standard, 4-6 = Execution).
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 14:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

It seems clear the Banner takes precedent.

Remember, a passed re-roll is not a failure, therefore the option of the re-roll is a safety net. Consider; Pinning does not work until after all re-rolls, FNP and so forth have taken place. Nor, in fact, do morale checks.

As such, Summary Execution cannot kick in until any and all re-rolls have been made.
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 14:47   #6 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

On the other hand, Wargamer, both rules offer a reroll in the case of a failed check so why couldn't the same argument be used to justify Summary Execution kick in first?
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[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 15:09   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

Well, because of this:

Banner allows you to re-roll straight away. Summary Execution has a "Do X then re-roll" setup. In other words, you have to take an in-between action before the re-roll can be made.

Thus, it is not a 'true' re-roll; it is, in fact, taking the test again under new conditions.
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 15:16   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

Hmm... Can the two then be combined to reroll a reroll?
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[table][tr][td]Regards,
MT.[/td][td] [[/td][/tr][/table][hr]What's an abelian group with an associative, distributive secondary operator and the power to corrupt mortals?
[spoiler=Answer]The One Ring![/spoiler]
[hr]
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Old 12 Aug 2009, 15:21   #9 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

No you can't reroll a reroll, the rules specifically forbid it.

Also you could argue that if anything the Execution wuold take preference as it is 'part' of the unit and is immediate rather than an external factor.

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Old 13 Aug 2009, 08:17   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Chicken and egg question

Summary Execution is an external factor - a Commissar can potentially leave the squad (if a Commissar Lord), but a standard bearer cannot!

Think of it in logical steps, and it becomes clear.

STEP 1: Determine if the unit must take a Morale Check.

STEP 2: Determine Leadership value.
Here is where the Standard kicks in - as far as the rules are concerned, a unit with re-rollable leadership has not failed its Morale Check unless the original roll and the re-roll have failed. Thus, the Standard is part of Step 2.

STEP 3: Special fall-back conditions.
This is where the Commissar comes in. Normally, a unit must fall back upon failing its Morale Check. However, a Commissar intervenes - Summary Execution applies here.

STEP 4: Fall-back movement.


As I have said, Summary Execution is not a re-roll. It is a re-take. For the Standard, there is no action between failing the initial roll and taking the re-roll. With Summary Execution, there is. Therefore, the Standard takes precedent due to lack of a "mid-step".
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