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Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams
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Old 06 Jun 2009, 23:02   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Right, so by now you guys might have figured two things out:

1) Obviously this comparison is intended to take place in smaller point games (from 400 upto 1.5k), as otherwise you'd have ratling squads of more than 3 guys and special weapons teams doing other things.

2) As a result of similar threads posted by me in the recent past, you must've noticed that I like comparing the effectiveness of different Imperial Guard units ;D


Right, so for roughly the same points cost, you get either 3 Ratlings or 6 Guardsmen, of which 3 have sniper rifles, thus forming a special weapons squad. Now you can only have upto 2 special weapons squads per infantry platoon, so you can argue that they are suited for better purposes like plasma/melta/demolitions, but since ratlings fill up a valuable Elites choice, we can agree that both are equally important/useless. Now, assuming both stay back in cover and fire away, we have:

Ratlings: 3 sniper rifles, BS4, T2, LD6, 3W, 3+Sv.
Snipers: 3 sniper rifles & 3 lasguns, BS3, T3, LD7, 6W, 4+Sv.

My question is:
1) Do the 3 extra lasguns (along with 3 BS3 sniper rifles) equate to the same firepower when firing at anything upto T6 compared to the ratlings' 3 BS4 sniper rifles?

2) Is BS4 and the +1 on cover save good enough to trump over double the wounds, T3, LD7, and 3 extra lasguns?

Also, remember that 2 guardsmen need to drop before the first LD test is taken, whereas 1 ratling down is enough to force a morale check on LD6 on the ratlings...of course I also forgot to mention further facts like S2 of the ratlings, but I4, but because I thought that both teams would fair equally (badly) in close combat, I ignored this fact.
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Old 06 Jun 2009, 23:10   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

A few things to bear in mind;

- For the price of a 6 man Special Weapons Squad with 3 Sniper Rifles you can actually afford 5 Ratlings, not 3,

- At a low points game (400 or so), using an Elites slot isn't as great a deal as at a higher level. But, at the higher level, you can increase the size of the squad to the full 10 Ratlings giving you more use out of that Elites slot,

- When talking about a 6 man T3 squad vs. a 5 Ratling T2 squad, they're both going to be killed by roughly the same amount of firepower, though the Ratlings' Stealth means that they are slightly more resilient,

- 5 BS4 Sniper Rifles are more powerful than 3 BS3 Sniper Rifles + 3 BS3 Lasguns,

- As you say, a SWS seems to be of more use for other things.


In general, I consider Ratlings far superior to a SWS armed with Sniper Rifles. The only thing that is in the SWS' favour is that they don't take up an Elites slot (but let's face it, how often will you actually fill up your Elites slots?).
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Old 06 Jun 2009, 23:29   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked Thespian
A few things to bear in mind;

- For the price of a 6 man Special Weapons Squad with 3 Sniper Rifles you can actually afford 5 Ratlings, not 3,

- At a low points game (400 or so), using an Elites slot isn't as great a deal as at a higher level. But, at the higher level, you can increase the size of the squad to the full 10 Ratlings giving you more use out of that Elites slot,

- When talking about a 6 man T3 squad vs. a 5 Ratling T2 squad, they're both going to be killed by roughly the same amount of firepower, though the Ratlings' Stealth means that they are slightly more resilient,

- 5 BS4 Sniper Rifles are more powerful than 3 BS3 Sniper Rifles + 3 BS3 Lasguns,

- As you say, a SWS seems to be of more use for other things.


In general, I consider Ratlings far superior to a SWS armed with Sniper Rifles. The only thing that is in the SWS' favour is that they don't take up an Elites slot (but let's face it, how often will you actually fill up your Elites slots?).
Ah damn I just looked at the basic points cost for 6 guardsmen >.<

Yes, so it boils down to 5 ratlings vs 6 guardsmen w. 3 sniper rifles. Obviously the ratlings have much better firepower (in rapid-fire range both are roughly equal) and roughly the same survivability, unless wounded by S5+ weapons, in which case the ratlings are better because T2 or T3 then makes no difference and +1 cover for each one of the Ratlings' 5 wounds is better than than +1wound.

But what about the leadership?
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 02:44   #4 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Leadership is Ratlings' flaw. There is no way to get around it, as trying to get a special character or commissar is a waste of their potential, and after one or two games, people are going to try and take them out before they rend a way that Wraithlord's 3 wounds in one round of shooting. That is, if you have them infiltrate. You could keep them in your backfield behind some bodies, and as a result, closer to guys like Straken. That would be my way of dealing with them. Any fool who tries to get close to you will get sniped, and if they try to shoot? Well, you have to get through a 3+ coversave and fearless. Go ahead. Try.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 04:24   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Who cares about the ratling's leadership though? They won't have to take many leadership tests really. With stealth most enemies will just burn or assault them out of cover and then you're getting wiped out no matter what. Ratlings are better every time. Better BS, more shots per point and better cover save. If you're shooting your snipers at targets that would be in any way vulnerable to the fire from 3 lasguns, you're not shooting at the right target. Everyone says don't depend on rending, but when you use snipers, that's exactly what you're depending on. You fire them at small high save units like terminators to try and thin them out or at single large creatures where the rending wounds and a few forced saves is a big deal, especially when that creature usually depends on its high toughness for its main protection from the cheap masses. Ratlings are the only place to use sniper rifles. In respect to the elites slot arguement, this is not as big a deal as it used to be. Very few guard armies are ever going to fill out all three of their elite slots unless you're playing an enormous game or a triple psyker battle squad combo is the main focus of your army. Stormtroopers and Ogryns, the only other choices are FAR too expensive to consider taking 2-3 units of them.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 11:17   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Another alternative would be veteran squads, 3 sniper rifles, 6 lasguns and a laspistol with camo cloaks is only 115 points, next to the 100 points for 10 ratlings, another 10-15 points nets you a heavy weapon that could make up for the loss of the 7 snipers most of the time, plus the extra toughness, defensive grenades and. This might be a bit expensive next to the ratlings, but its actually cheaper and a lot more survivable than the special weapon squads in a small game, especially if you're using other veterans/conscripts etc as your main troops rather than infantry platoons, because you have to spend at least 150 points on the other squads before you can rock out the specialists anyway- It really comes down to what type of game you're playing- kill points, go for the veterans or ratlings, objectives take the specialists, because they come with more squads to hold one.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 13:53   #7 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

If you want sniper rifles... Ratlings are the one to use. If you dont like the models, as me, use normal IG models and use the rule "counts as".

Getting special weapon squad for this isnt really point effective, and not really what I see them doing. For me special weapon squad is demolisions, flamer, melta, basically close up fighting

Veterans, well they have a good BS value, but there is 7 additional veterans who are eager to do something too. The unit will basically become an expensive sniper unit. BUT if you intend to sit and camp in a forest with perhaps forward sentries doctrine, they would be pretty okey. Give them a heavy bolter and they can dash out some decent amount of shots at a good range.

A common sniper I have seen is command squads. they can have 4 sniper rifles and makes them really good at it if you dont want ratlings. Command squads are often stationary anyway.
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Old 07 Jun 2009, 17:30   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

You can have 10 veterans with 3 sniper rifles for 85, even better!
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Old 08 Jun 2009, 01:52   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Also remember that the Vet ones would be BS 4.

However the Special Weps team and Vets are Scoring. Where the Ratlings are not.
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Old 09 Jun 2009, 11:00   #10 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ratlings vs. Special weapon sniper teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan
In respect to the elites slot arguement, this is not as big a deal as it used to be. Very few guard armies are ever going to fill out all three of their elite slots...
One more comment on this matter - if you've got spare elite slots, and a decent number of ratlings, you're better off splitting them into minimum-sized separate squads. This helps your survivability - ratlings are fragile, but your enemy can only shoot up one squad at a time. It also, interestingly, increases your firepower. A team of ten ratlings will inflict around three casualties on light infantry, causing a pinning test. The same number of ratlings split into three squads will cause around one casualty each, potentially causing up to three pinning tests, which makes it that much more likely that the target unit will be taken out of action for the next turn.
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