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Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 06:12   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

OK so most of us when we heard that we could field 9 leman russ were overjoyed, but upon reading the vehicle squadron rules again, i became a little less enthusiastic for the following reasons.

1. All models in a squadron must fire at the same target, i mean seriously how many units survive 1 pie plate? let alone 2! This might be ok if you were taking exterminators or vanquishers (where their weapons might not kill the first time around).

2. this is the nasty one, extra penetrating and glancing hits are allocated to the rest of the squadron, what does this mean?, your enemy charges his bloodthirster into 1 tank and kills all three in one assault phase!, the same goes for shooting, I mean russes are well armored but this is hard to ignore, especially if you enemy has a unit with multiple meltaguns (chaos marines), or even necrons.

I havent played with tank squadrons with the new dex so far, but i have fielded landspeeder squadrons with similar results, whats every one elses opinion?
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 06:13   #2 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

Same as yours. Cost too many points that can be spent elsewhere and makes them too vulnerable. Anyway, 3 Leman Russes (1 for each HS FoC) is quite optimal in a Standard Guard list.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 07:25   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

Realistically the only time you want to put more than one LRBT in a single FOC choice is for much larger battles when you sacrifice the survivability of three Russ' to be able to fit nine.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 08:35   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

Indeed. i think the idea of squadrons is nice on paper, but when it come down to it, its crap on grass. Taking 3 russ's as your 3 HS FOCS can be very good, at the moment i'm running 2 LRBTs and am planning on getting a executioner. just for kicks.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 13:48   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

You all seem to be forgetting that little 'ignore shaken and stunned results' rule for having at least 2 vehicles in the squadron alive.

Any glance except for immobilize is going to keep for from shooting in the next turn. Taking a squadron allows a russ to die from a glancing hit technically, but also allows it to ignore 2/3 of the results on a glance, and 1/3 of the results on a pen.

It's for more aggressive players, like me.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 14:19   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

That is a fair point. I was in the camp that squadron weren't going to be worth it but that has made me think.. hmm..
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 14:26   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

There are plenty of pros and cons. Sure you negate 2/3 of a glance, but then you have the ability to lose your entire squadron to a large AT squad.

I feel that there is enough of a balance between the pros and cons for it to be purely up to player preference. It all depends on how you want to play.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 17:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

I feel that having more than 1 russ will result in a group of tanks that is simply a more risky but aggressive gambit. I think it makes a unit that is made to deal as much damage as possible early in the game, but will likely drop as the game goes on. Ignoring Shaken and Stunned is huge for scoring early-game kills, but the increased probability of being wrecked means that they probably won't be around for more the the first few turns.

So, in my opinion, the squadron is more for the aggressive player who needs to deal as much damage as possible as early as possible to blunt retaliation. Using single russes is more for the player who wants a more reliable firebase and support unit. Deals less damage, and can be hindered by any glance, but has less of a chance of blowing up and can't be killed on a glance.

I'd call it personal preference. I'd take squadrons because I am a highly aggressive player. I learned early on that you win when you can control the pace of the game. To that end I don't play like many guard players, I'm the kind that stays mobile at all costs and tries to jab the proverbial eyes out of my opponent's army by systematically destroying lynch pin units. Just my style.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 18:49   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

Kaffl, USAFTACP - you guys should reread the Squadron rules. Squadroned vehicles don't ignore stunned/shaken, they treat stunned as shaken (p. 64). So a glance will still prevent them from shooting.

However, there are other advantages to squadrons:

1. You resolve all shots before removing any casualties. Dropping 2+ blast markers on a mob of units can be much nastier now.

2. If the shooting unit cannot see half of the vehicles, the squadron is considered in cover and gets a cover save. Add camo netting and you've got a 3+ save on a vehicle.
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Old 04 Jun 2009, 20:00   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Viability of more than 1 russ as a heavy support choice

I find a single battle cannon usually isn't enugh to put down an enemy in one turn anyways. 2 Gives you that back up edge. There's only a couple ranged units that can cause havoc to a russ squadron like you would with small, weaker vehicles like landspeeders. Basically it's going to just be firedragons and squads with 3-4 meltaguns. Broadsides I'm not putting in here because I've never seen them without multitrackers so they could target independant vehicles anyways within their squad. So, these squads are all crippled by their short range. The easiest solution is to not let them get that close. Not that hard when you're hurling 2 battlecannon shells at them every turn. Close combat units are on the same principle. If their close enough to assault a squadron, they're going to be in a position to ruin your solo vehicles as well.

Personally, I've had good results with squadroned russes so far. I field a pair of regular and then a solo exterminator and a solo vanquisher in my mech list and they give a solid multitasking firebase. The main weakness of the squadrons is having the space to move them around. For that reason I don't go more than pairs because it's just too hard to maintain coherency and have LOS to targets with all the cannons. I need to tweak and play my list more so we'll see how they pan out in the longterm.
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