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Carapace on Veterans Debate
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Old 24 May 2009, 18:30   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Carapace on Veterans Debate

This has poked up a couple of times, but I wanted to hash things out on it's own.

Is the Grenadiers Doctrine on Veteran Squads a viable option? Is the insane amount of points worth having a 4+ save?

I can see on certain "Elite Drop Troops" army's this could be a great option, cause pretty much every standard infantry weapon out there has a AP of 5. However, spending this amount of points on a squad that now becomes 100 points before upgrades, i can get 2 10 man normal infantry squads for 100 points before upgrades. So is Grenadiers even worth to take? Or are Standard Veterans suffice?
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Old 24 May 2009, 20:51   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

I believe it depends on the rest of your list and the task set for your Veterans.

Veterans are an investment of points, period. To protect that asset, unfortunately, you have to spend more points.

If you are buying three special weapons at ten to fifteen points a piece, you need to protect your investment. Otherwise you would just use platoon squads.

The only Veterans squad of mine that does not use carapace armor is based on Sergeant Harker, (Blain), and only because his special rule doesn't allow you to use it.

My other two squads of Veterans are your standard, plasma times three/melta times three with carapace and demolitions.

They have the backing of two infantry squads, six lascannons etc etc..
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Old 24 May 2009, 23:48   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

Put it like this.
Who would a fire fight?
The two Infantry squads or the Veteran squad with Carapace?
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Old 25 May 2009, 01:13   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash
Put it like this.
Who would a fire fight?
The two Infantry squads or the Veteran squad with Carapace?
I think the Veterans would win from inside their Valkyrie, especially since you can't fit two infantry squads in that same Valkyrie.

I use Grenadiers on my Veteran unit because I dislike not getting saves from Bolters. That's about the only reason really, but since I don't tool lists that means I just use Grenadiers in all of my lists. It's quite nice, really, it allows them to stay on open-field objectives for more than one round.

So that's my take. Vets are objective-grabbers, and the better save is worth the extra point investment in my mind, since the only support they'll probably have is in the form of a Valkyrie and long-ranged weaponry from your Heavy Weapon Squads. I haven't been disappointed with them yet.
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Old 25 May 2009, 01:26   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

I use mine in a Chimera with a melta flamer and heavy flamer, and when they pop out of that chimera they are more often then not out in the open, and if i want to use that squad for more then 1 turn (my main enemy is tau and pulse rifles hurt) then they have to have carapace.
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Old 25 May 2009, 04:13   #6 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

I would say yes; they're much cheaper than their previous predecessor plus they wouldn't be picked off just by Bolters. It's also a theme, I guess. Veterans got the best gear etc.
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Old 25 May 2009, 15:01   #7 (permalink)
Shas'La
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

Yes it's worth it, I have Vets with and without carapace and in a game vs Necrons the Grenadiers easily out lasted the plain Vets. Remember that 4+ is also helpfull in close combat.
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Old 25 May 2009, 19:23   #8 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

I think that the doctrines rely heavily on what you want them to do. Personally i'mhaving one squad with harker as forword sentries, with snare mines and flamers, in an attempt to draw the enemy out of cover so that my second squad led by the other special sergeant with a vets squad with grenadiers doctrine can take them out. I am reliant heavily on the co ordination of both squads working to their best and using the new orders ability to take on TEQ/MEQ opponants.
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Old 25 May 2009, 22:16   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

I feel that if your relying on 4+ saves in a guard army your not using it right.

Armies that have only veterans as their troops will not be as effective as more troops would.
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Old 25 May 2009, 23:20   #10 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Carapace on Veterans Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD
I feel that if your relying on 4+ saves in a guard army your not using it right.

Armies that have only veterans as their troops will not be as effective as more troops would.
no of coarse not, you should never depend on it as an army wide upgrade or take an entire army of grenadiers (unless its a theme list). I'm just saying as an upgrade to that squad its worth it and really useful, I can't tell you the number of times that carapace has saved my vets from being destroyed and allowing me to use those vital special weapons one more turn.
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