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Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List
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Old 16 May 2009, 02:46   #1 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Alright, so I find it hard to believe the Guard Codex can be used to make a cheese~y list. Every attempt I've tried to make it so is either 1) Too expensive point-wise to be effective; or 2) Have a very obvious weakness. So, anyone having better luck than me?
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Old 16 May 2009, 03:10   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Were it my intent...

Creed 90

Company Command 155
Master of Ordnance
Officer of the Fleet
Medi-Pack
Bodyguard

Platoon 400

Command Squad

Squad
Squad
Squad
Squad

Heavy Weapon Squad
Lascannon
Lascannon
Missile Launcher

Platoon 230

Command Squad

Squad
Squad
Squad
Squad

3 Griffons 225

3 Griffons 225

3 Griffons 225

5 Ogryns 265
Chimera



5 Ogryns 265
Chimera

Total 2000

Ok, yes, the command squad is horribly inefficient, but to hold the line with the mass of Guardsmen they'll do. Creed is a badass with the most amazing orders ever, and will be able to give the Ogryns 'For The Honour Of Cadia' if he moves up just a bit (EDIT: Silly me, they already have Furious Charge!). The Ogryns for their part are going to sit in their Chimera and run the flanks sticking to cover when possible. They'd pop smoke when they aren't in cover. With luck and the constant pounding of Griffons (which are both cheap and completely amazing in units of 3) they'll reach the line unharmed and ready to beat the shit out of whatever's dumb enough to be near them. If the opponent is playing an assault army, they will make excellent counter-charge units and can donate their Chimeras to an infantry squad who will sit on an objective. If nothing else, the Chimeras can either race back to the guard line to taxi a squad to an objective or turn into missiles, tank-shocking and ramming anything they can.

The flaw in this list is that there's no concentrated anti-tank (EDIT: nevermind, I fixed it good). However, tanks alone won't win games, and this list can pound infantry into dust. Go after scoring units ASAP. Transports aren't generally touch enough to withstand more than a volley or two, and if someone wants to transport a Tactical Squad in a Land Raider, then count your blessings that they aren't Terminators. There are still 3 Lascannons and Ordnance though (people forget how effective Ordnance is at busting tanks). If nothing else, Chimeras are there to ram! By no means a sure thing, but funny if it works.

To me this is a cheesy army. It has the ability to take on anything and seriously frightening firepower, coupled with great shooting and assault. Ogryns are disgustingly good, as are Griffons, and I capitalized on those with this list. The thing is, the list is more secret cheese, as I don't think most people see Griffons as being that great, but for such a low cost and improved accuracy, who can resist???

EDIT: Silly me thinking an Astropath would do anything in this army.
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Old 16 May 2009, 08:44   #3 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

...

That's it? It's pathetic. I mean, seriously, a Space Marine can waltz up to you and pimp-slap you. I expect this list to be dismembered easily with a Drop Pod SM Army or DA Deathwings.
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Old 16 May 2009, 12:09   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Really? I highly doubt it. I can guarantee I can put the hurt on any marine player with this list.

Have you ever put down 9 str 6 large blasts that are actually accurate before? No marine army is going to get the better of this list without some serious effort. Yeah, so I don't disallow their saves, but when one unit of Griffons forces them to take 18 saves per turn things aren't going to be pleasant. Plus pinning checks if they lose even one model.

And Deathwing would die to this army so fast as to not even be funny. Any army that comes in piecemeal would, honestly. Even Daemons would have serious trouble against this, and they're meant to mitigate the nasty effects of not having a whole army on the table by design.

Like I said, I'm not one for making lists that look like powerhouses. But I can play this list to great effect and not have any friends by the end of the day. And then nobody will underestimate Griffons again.

EDIT: If we were going deeper into tactics, if I were playing against an army with nothing but Deep-Strikers I'd pop the Ogryns down in my blind-spots so that I don't have to worry about Griffons exposing weaker armour. They will behave defensively and stall for some time, or kill attackers who try to take my flanks to get at weaker armour. Their Chimeras would be donated to a pair of stock guard units to grab objectives. If they're chased, whatever, they're pretty damn fast and they can outrun terminators and laugh at units of Pink Horrors and Plaguebearers. Daemonettes may give them a bit of trouble, but that just means that a unit of Griffons has to focus on giving them support for a round. And really, who takes Daemonettes? I haven't seen them used before except by one kid who just wanted a themed army.

So, models deepstrike and, if they don't get a good roll for run, are pounded to dust by the Griffons. Greater Daemons could be a nuisance, but Bring It Down! on the unit with Lascannons could drop it fast. This in turn can be countered only by a Lord of Change who can shoot them first, or possibly a Keeper with Pavane if the Daemons have troops close enough that can charge that turn. Even so, Griffons will be effective against Greater Daemons as well. Unless we're against a Daemonzilla list, this isn't even a problem though, as one or 2 MCs isn't that tough to bring down. Massed lasguns can do it, or even a charge by a large unit of guardsmen with 'For The Honour Of Cadia'.

Drop Pods are weak, even with Deathwinds. If I stick to terrain like any good guard player, I can laugh them off and drop them with Lascannons if I have nothing better to shoot at. The marines inside get to meet my multiple barrages.
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Old 16 May 2009, 12:12   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Company Command Squad

Commander Alexander
2 Veterans
Veteran Weapons Team (Missile Launcher)

Cost: 65

Elites

SS sergeant
5 SS Troopers

Cost:115

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Commander
2 Guardsmen
Heavy Weapons Team

Squad 1
Sergeant
9 Guardsmen


Squad 2
Sergeant
9 Guardsmen


Heavy Weapons Squad 1
3 Heavy Weapons Teams (missile Launcher)

Heavy Weapons Squad 2
3 Heavy Weapons Teams (missile Launcher)

Cost: 310

Platoon 2



Veteran Squad 1
Sergeant
9 Veterans


Veteran Squad 2
Sergeant
9 veterans

Cost: 140

Fast attack

Valkyrie (Multiple Rocket pod, Heavy bolter)

Valkyrie (Multiple Rocket pod, Heavy bolter)

Cost: 280

Heavy Support

3 colossus

3 Medusa

2 basilisk

Cost: 1200

total: ~2000 points

of course this is only my own twist, arguably the cheesiest guard list will spam basic troops and have NINE leman russes, the basic ones.
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Old 16 May 2009, 12:27   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

There are better artillery around than the Basilisk now. That enormous blind sport makes them impossible to hide, since you're going to have to draw los to even hit anything now. Colossi and Medusae are pretty good, but the Medusa allows cover saves and the Colossus has an enormous blind spot as well.

The Vets in Valks will work for claiming objectives, but that's one damn expensive transport. With a pair of them they may cause a bit of a headache, but more likely the opponent can just ignore them if they stick to cover. I sprang for the Griffons personally because they're inexpensive and dead-accurate. Remember that the other ordnance in the army has a quite large chance to scatter and do nothing at all for 4 out of 6 turns. Griffons get the nice re-roll that makes them so much more potent.
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Old 16 May 2009, 13:20   #7 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Kaffl the problem with the list is that you're a one-trick pony. The only thing you rely on are the griffons, which are accurate but can't really hurt much.

Using Deathwing as an example, in 2k points you'd have about 30 terminators with 3 dreadnaughts with drop pods. 3 of those squads and two of those dreads are coming down first turn on you. Griffons may be accurate, but they're still subjective to scattering and with the enemy that close to your lines you can guarantee that it will happen. Since they are barrage shots a bad scatter roll can put a huge hole in your army, while a good one really isn't going to cause that many casualties for a 2+ save, not to mention it won't have crap on the dreads.

There are only 6 weapons in your entire list can can bring the terminators save down to 5+, and I can pretty much guess where those drop pods are going to be put down in LOS to. So once those lascannons are put down (which is easy to do with only 3 models in a squad) there really isn't anything those dreads have to watch out for...
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Old 16 May 2009, 13:25   #8 (permalink)
Shas'Saal
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenai
Alright, so I find it hard to believe the Guard Codex can be used to make a cheese~y list. Every attempt I've tried to make it so is either 1) Too expensive point-wise to be effective; or 2) Have a very obvious weakness. So, anyone having better luck than me?
I would say a list similar to Kaffi's would work. What the Guard do better and cheaper than anyone else (even Orks) is put boots on the ground. A list lacking of all the new shiny stuff, concentrating on troops would be hell to beat.

Guard can pretty much make all of there troops (even conscripts) stubborn.

Guard can pretty much give furious charge to any other unit within 24 inches/ combined with stubborn = nasty when given to a squad of 50.

Guard can give almost any unit the ability to re roll all failed to hits to would in close combat, priests.

No one can field more twin linked (with orders) heavy weapons than Guard.

Given time (it's 0900 hours here) I could write a list with over two hundred Guard that would be very effective. I haven't pursued it because I know there is no way I would ever paint two hundred figures. (Three kids/wife/55 hours a week= No free time)
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Old 16 May 2009, 13:36   #9 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

The basilisk is still the best artillery for general purpose activities, The medusa is there to cover the blindspot of the colossus, the colossus is there to kill whatever gets in your way at the start of the game, the first platoon is there to provide a meat sheild and light barrage to protect the artillery, and the vets and valks are there to claim some objectives after vaporizing your opposition. Everything gets covered. the only problem is no termie killer capacity.... oh wait, combined squads and FRFSRF. 60-90 shots ... that'll kill some terminators. 90 statistically will wipe out your basic terminator squads. 90*.5 * (2/6) *(1/3)=5
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Old 16 May 2009, 13:51   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Challenge: Make the Cheese~ist Guard List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffl
Really? I highly doubt it. I can guarantee I can put the hurt on any marine player with this list.

Have you ever put down 9 str 6 large blasts that are actually accurate before? No marine army is going to get the better of this list without some serious effort. Yeah, so I don't disallow their saves, but when one unit of Griffons forces them to take 18 saves per turn things aren't going to be pleasant. Plus pinning checks if they lose even one model.

And Deathwing would die to this army so fast as to not even be funny. Any army that comes in piecemeal would, honestly. Even Daemons would have serious trouble against this, and they're meant to mitigate the nasty effects of not having a whole army on the table by design.

Like I said, I'm not one for making lists that look like powerhouses. But I can play this list to great effect and not have any friends by the end of the day. And then nobody will underestimate Griffons again.

EDIT: If we were going deeper into tactics, if I were playing against an army with nothing but Deep-Strikers I'd pop the Ogryns down in my blind-spots so that I don't have to worry about Griffons exposing weaker armour. They will behave defensively and stall for some time, or kill attackers who try to take my flanks to get at weaker armour. Their Chimeras would be donated to a pair of stock guard units to grab objectives. If they're chased, whatever, they're pretty damn fast and they can outrun terminators and laugh at units of Pink Horrors and Plaguebearers. Daemonettes may give them a bit of trouble, but that just means that a unit of Griffons has to focus on giving them support for a round. And really, who takes Daemonettes? I haven't seen them used before except by one kid who just wanted a themed army.

So, models deepstrike and, if they don't get a good roll for run, are pounded to dust by the Griffons. Greater Daemons could be a nuisance, but Bring It Down! on the unit with Lascannons could drop it fast. This in turn can be countered only by a Lord of Change who can shoot them first, or possibly a Keeper with Pavane if the Daemons have troops close enough that can charge that turn. Even so, Griffons will be effective against Greater Daemons as well. Unless we're against a Daemonzilla list, this isn't even a problem though, as one or 2 MCs isn't that tough to bring down. Massed lasguns can do it, or even a charge by a large unit of guardsmen with 'For The Honour Of Cadia'.

Drop Pods are weak, even with Deathwinds. If I stick to terrain like any good guard player, I can laugh them off and drop them with Lascannons if I have nothing better to shoot at. The marines inside get to meet my multiple barrages.
Pride cometh before fall, brother. You would be surprised how easily the dice might turn against you... (I speak from having watched other players play at it.)
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