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is sharp shooter a waste of points
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 12:07   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default is sharp shooter a waste of points

ok this is a subject I always wanted to bring up but always forget. I see a lot of people use it and always ask them why bother with this discipline.

1. it either gonna cost you + 2 or + 1 pt per man to use.

2. I can see it's worth if it gave you a bs of 4 or an automatic hit on a 1.

3. it allows you to try to hit again on a roll of a one. so in essence you have a 50 percent chance of hitting your target and you have a 16.66 chance to re-roll and give you another 50 percent chance to hit.

so with 24 shots normally I will hit 12 times on an average.

with a bs of 4 with 24 shots I will hit 18 times

with sharp shooter with 24 shoots I will hit 12. than 6 into 24 is 4 times. so that would be 4 ones. half of that would be two. so I add the two into 12 which will give me 14 shots which will be 2 extra hits. so in a 10 man squad for 10 points I get slightly under 1 extra shot to hit with. I ask you is 10 pts worth it. hell in a 5 man squad is even worse.

now I can see if it's worth 5pts or less per squad. than I can understand taking it. but for it's point cost in my opinion is not worth it.

it's worth it's points if you roll a lot of 1's on your first roll and than roll over 4+ on your second roll.

only reason it makes sense to me to take this is due to fluff. just to point out that they shoot slighly better than your average gaurdsmen.
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 12:14   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

I'm not an IG player, but I did play against an IG force with Sharpshooters in my last (Apoc) game and I will tell you that he re-rolled a lot of 1's. As these were mostly on his heavy weapons teams, it did help him a bit. So I would say that, yes, in circumstances where you'll be using a lot of heavy weapons, Sharpshooters could help you maximize points efficiency. Likewise, as 5th edition pushes game meta away from quality fire and more towards quantity fire, high ROF weapons end up being more potent against most infatry. That said, if you ROF increases, then your potential for 1's (and, in turn, re-rolls) will increase too.

Just an opinion from a Xenos Traitor.
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 13:52   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

Obsolutely not. IG is all about quantity not quality. You can spend points to make them shoot better, but they died just as easily. There is more to the point increase than just giving some extra shots occasionally. If you give SS to your average minimum troop FOCS's, you waste 60 points! That's enough for a whole additional guardsmen squad with 10 more wounds. And 10/20 more shots.
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Old 10 Jan 2009, 14:52   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

This is one of those player's preference where their experience takes precedence. Some people are really good at rolling 1's for some reason. So, they took Sharpshooter to compensate for that while some others aren't like that and don't see a reason to take Sharpshooters at all.

So, if you been rolling 1's like no tomorrow, then take Sharpshooter. Otherwise us those points for something else. This is something to have to experience yourself.

My 2 cents.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 14:59   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

Sharpshooters is one of the less clearly useful doctrines. It may or may not be wasted depending on circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicop76
1. it either gonna cost you + 2 or + 1 pt per man to use.
That alone doesn't tell us much. A plasmagun costs +1 point per man, as does a HB. A Leman Russ in my standard list costs 1.9 points per man.

Quote:
so with 24 shots normally I will hit 12 times on an average.
Hu? Which unit fires 24 shots normally?!?

With 24 shots at BS 3 you will miss - that's the important part - 12 times. Of these, 2 will statistically be rolls of '1'. Of these two, one more will hit.

1/2 x 1/6 x 1/2 = 1/24 = 4.42 % increase in hits

Example squad = 80 points + 1/8 = 12.5 % increase in cost. That doesn't look like it is worth it, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAFTACP
IG is all about quantity not quality.
Even that traditional mantra has its limits, or no-one would buy special or heavy weapons, which in the end make us "shoot better". You need the right tools to do the job, even if they cost points.

Quote:
If you give SS to your average minimum troop FOCS's, you waste 60 points! That's enough for a whole additional guardsmen squad with 10 more wounds. And 10/20 more shots.
Apparently so. However, SS is an excellent points filler, especially for fire support squads. What else are you going to do with say 20 points? Will they be useful every game? Of course not but if those autocannon or heavy bolters do kill something extra from time to time, I think it is well worth this small investment.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 15:11   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

It's quite obvious quantity over quality isn't referring to the number of guardsmen alone. Spending that 10 points is one less HB or plasmagun. I'd much rather have a plasma gun on a squad than be able to reroll a few lasgun shots a turn.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 20:40   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

for a point filler I rather go with camo cloaks or chem mask than with sharpshooter.

I used 24 shots for my example so I wouldn't have to use percentile. I was trying for the k.I.s.s. method. I know a squad don't shot 24 times. I never said a squad did. 24 was just an easy number to work with.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 21:25   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

It has been proven mathimatically and on the table that Sharp Shooters is not worth it on anything less than a heavy weapons team where it matters.

For the price of sharp shooters on 3 units you can pick up another unit of guardsmen who can score, shoot another target and get more hits than 3 units worth of sharp shooters over the course of a game.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 21:32   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoreChild
It has been proven mathimatically and on the table that Sharp Shooters is not worth it on anything less than a heavy weapons team where it matters.

For the price of sharp shooters on 3 units you can pick up another unit of guardsmen who can score, shoot another target and get more hits than 3 units worth of sharp shooters over the course of a game.
You mean the price of sharpshooters on 6 units?

I don't know, I find that I like to have Sharpshooters when I really flub my shooting phase. Usually it doesn't do much, but boy does it save me sometimes!

Quote:
With 24 shots at BS 3 you will miss - that's the important part - 12 times. Of these, 2 will statistically be rolls of '1'. Of these two, one more will hit.
Also, your mathhammer is off by a bit. If you miss twelve times, 4 will be rolls of 1 since you only miss on 1's 2's and 3's. So you'll get two more hits on average. However, it's not fair to claim effectiveness on incorrect point values.

On a normal squad of Guardsmen, you're paying 1 extra point per member. Normally, if they rapid fire, you should hit 10 times and miss 10 times. Of those 10 misses, 3 or 4 will be 1's and can be re-rolled, resulting in 1 or 2 more hits (to be mathematically accurate, 1.75 more hits, so 2 more often than 1). Obviously, if you're not rapid-firing then you're getting half the extra hits.

But looking at it from a Heavy Weapon standpoint, which is how it should be looked at, let's say it's on a Heavy Bolter. A Heavy Bolter will hit 1.5 times. Which means either 1 or 2, obviously. So you'll get to make a re-roll .5 times, or essentially every other turn. That means you should get an extra 1.5 hits per game for essentially 1 point (I count heavy weapons as two models, one of which just having a Lasgun). Autocannons will score an extra 1 hit for 1 point, and Lascannons have a half a chance of scoring an extra hit during a game. In terms of 1 point per model, that doesn't seem bad to me at all. It's just the extra point for every other member of the squad is what drags it down.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 21:40   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: is sharp shooter a waste of points

P-L-A-S-M-A

that's where I see sharp shooters being great. I saw a player roll 5 1's with his plasma guns, reroll them, and instead of killing 5 guys he killed 1 =P

Otherwise I'd take more models myself...unless you need points.
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