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In response to the DoW debate.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 12:15   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default In response to the DoW debate.

Note: The thread was locked while I was writting out my post and considering how long it is, why let it all go to waste after i spent the past 10 minutes typing away. And also towards the end I pointed out a mistake made with the Tyranid codex, so hopefully that helps in your future games.

Ok let me try this insult free...seriously.

@ USAFTACP
1. No using the correct term is proper. I'm mainly a tyranid player and I snapped out of the habit of saying 'fleet' during the shooting phase right away. So i'm sure you can too. And you assumed that I know what you are talking about, but the fact is, i don't. That's why I stressed that you say RUN not FLEET because when you guys mentioned it, I kept getting confused and thinking that you somehow thought that you get an extra D6 roll to assault. It's all a matter of a clarity.
Edit by AC: Okay folks, from hear on in we will use run, and never speak of this again.

2. I also think that all our opinions are clashing hard because let's face it some of you may play tyranids but you aren't a "Tyranid Player" or don't consider yourself one because it's not your main army. IMO (and i may be wrong) we all have a 'main' army that is our particular favorite for one reason or another and we cater to it and defend it more strongly. IMO you guys are more into Guard than you are Tyranid so you haven't analyzed your 'Nids as much as your IG. By that same token I admit that I know very little about Guard so I really can't tell what the 'weakness' is as it's much easier to see their strengths from an outsider point of view. Good Observation! -AC

3. Well that depends on what you define as 'success' doesn't it? If you're interested, I have posted several battle reports.

4. Well I play necrons and admittedly I am a beginner with them, but before I played Necrons I battled necrons often in 4th. And now that I play them I see that they are infact weaker, armies get within CC range faster than before, they can only glance vehicles now where as before they could destroy them and I really can't think of many 'pluses' to the 'cons. Take a peek in the Necron board, they feel a little shafted by 5th edition..

@ ...

1. I believe you have a misconception about Toxin Sacs, I would recommend you to stop by the Tyranid forum and read/discuss/exchange ideas with some Tyranid players there. Toxin Sacs has never been our 'anti-tank' option. It just makes our units stronger and much more expensive depending on the unit.

2. I don't use just one synapse unit, in the example earlier you mentioned a Winged Tyrant with 2 full sized squads of Hormagants at his side deployed during DoW. I simply used that same example to show why that just wouldn't work since the Tyrant can only cover 12" of synapse range so it is impossible for 1 winged tyrant and 2 broods of hormagants to 'cover the whole board' as you claimed earlier. I'm not entirely sure if it was you or "USAFTACP" that made the claim but I know someone did and I simply discussed the same example.

3. I simply replied to you insults from earlier and I personally consider some of the suggested ideas presented at that point for Tyranids to be bad. Again please stop by the Tyranid board to exchange ideas and tactics and you will see i'm not the only one that feels that some of the ideas you mentioned simply would not work. Giving all your nids toxin sacs and other biomorphs to make them 'stronger' while forgetting that they remain extremely fragile is not a good tactical choice..

4. Ah okies at least you do agree that Necrons were nerfed. "USAFTACP" feels differently in this matter, and again I believe that's mainly because of not being a "Necron Player" (I'm a Nid Player even though i own 4 other armies I know that my knowledge is centered and based on Nid play). But I took the time to read up and discuss things with people in the Necron board to see how they felt and I agree that they got shafted in some big ways and considering the ridiculous lack of variety and options in the necron codex I say that the nerf hit necrons hard in 5th.

5. Genestealers and Lictors are hardly basic troops, they have rending and better stats. And I still hold that if your opponent's gaunts are S4 (not Hormagants) then he is doing something wrong or must have some kind of plan to back that up. Because it's simply a bad idea and a very quick way to lose a lot of points fast. Considering that you can only 'glance' the vehicle that makes it even worst.

6. Deployment and i'm sure many vet players will agree is a key part of winning games. I am an advocate of deployment ever since 4th edition when I realized just how important it is to deploy properly to win a battle. I'm sure the majority of veteran players will agree with that statement.

@ Lord Castellan Rmyr

1. Yes hormagants, gargoyles and raveners have a pretty nice asasult range. But then again it compares nothing to something like Orks and other armies with fast vehicles or stuff that turbo-boost. Hormagants/Raveners/Gargoyles hardly compare in speed to these. Specially because of the need for synapse and how ridiculously fragile they are. I do see the strength but I think you guys aren't taking the time to see the weaknesses and that these guys need a babysitter the whole time. (excluding gargoyles they have high enough Ld and don't need instant death protection)

2. A broodlord can't run and assault so that won't work. Genestealers assaulting first turn is possible if they have scouts ability and first turn and get a 6" on the RUN roll. However scuttlers don't come cheap at all a 3pt per stealer. And again we face the problem of 'overkilling' and be shot to hell and back after. Plus I have yet to meet a Guard player that deploys his army that close to a CC army oriented army so these theoretical assaults never actually happen. THANK THE LORD FOR OUTFLANKING! Which I find is the only salvation we have in 5th edition to target players that love to stand back and shoot.

3. I explained why above. I'm simply a Nid player from my point of view it's easier to see your strengths as im sure from your point of view it's easier to see mine. So I have to agree with you there and also point out that the same goes to you.

4. Your friend has not read the tyranid codex or missed the part that says the broodlord is 0-1. You can not take 2, unless you are playing apocalypse or a multiple-detachment game. The winged tyrant is also 0-1. Point this out to him as currently he is 'cheating' by using 2 broodlords. The broodlord is a great unit so is the winged tyrant that's why we get a limit on how many we can take. It would be cheesy to take more.

5. I have 10,000 points of tyranids. My Nid army is gigantic I have just about everything there is. So i have tried just about every 'build' I don't have a narrow view when it comes to list building. Because I build a mountain of lists regularly. Here's a pic of what I have in my inventory


this pic is old however, 4 gargoyles broke (i need to fix them) and I added 4 more carnifexes to the mix.

The army list you posted is odd because it is illegal. He simply can't have 2 Broodlords. And the fact that he actually put 2 in there and that you allow him to makes me question your perception of Nids. Tell your friend to come by the Tyranid forum any time we'll give him some tips and exchange ideas with him. we are always happy to welcome one more to the hive mind.

@ USAFTACP

That last post you said that you find that army build centered around 2 broodlords infiltrating interesting and wanted to try it. I hope you remember that broodlords are 0-1. Tyranid codex page 36. You guys may want to take a second look at the Broodlord entry
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 13:25   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: In response to the DoW debate.

Akaiyou, I just want to congratulate you. You've had some unpleasant history here at TO, and I think you've taken a big step to improving here with this post.

Good job.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 15:48   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: In response to the DoW debate.

As a Tyranid player (it was my first army, and is still my most loved), I certainly agree with some of your points, but wanted to address some others you made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
1. I believe you have a misconception about Toxin Sacs, I would recommend you to stop by the Tyranid forum and read/discuss/exchange ideas with some Tyranid players there. Toxin Sacs has never been our 'anti-tank' option. It just makes our units stronger and much more expensive depending on the unit.
It certainly is viable anti-tank in 5th, given that all melee attacks on a non-WS vehicle hit rear armor now. Being able to up the strength of our little beasties to 4 is a much bigger advantage now than it was in 4th. Given the prevalence of toughness 4 enemies, I'd be surprised to find people who didn't field Hormies with Toxin Sacs.

However, ranged anti-tank has always been superior to melee anti-tank, and will continue to be. Because you need something to shake up those pie-plate throwers long enough for the little bugs to get close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
2. I don't use just one synapse unit, in the example earlier you mentioned a Winged Tyrant with 2 full sized squads of Hormagants at his side deployed during DoW. I simply used that same example to show why that just wouldn't work since the Tyrant can only cover 12" of synapse range so it is impossible for 1 winged tyrant and 2 broods of hormagants to 'cover the whole board' as you claimed earlier. I'm not entirely sure if it was you or "USAFTACP" that made the claim but I know someone did and I simply discussed the same example.
For reference, if you used two broods of 32 hormagaunts each, and placed them so that they were each no more than 2" apart, and each brood had at least one model within 12" of the flyrant, they could be set up in a line roughly 12 and a half feet long (around 7 feet long if they only deploy with 1" between each model). So yes, they could cover the entire board, easily. This wouldn't be a great setup, but you could do it. About the only reason to do so that I can think of would be to provide an expensive mobile cover line for something to hide behind. Even then, I'm not sure it is worth it.

Also for reference, the hormagaunts alone come to 640 points (with no upgrades, like Toxin Sacs). Add the flyrant and toxin sacs and you are well past the 500 point mark. I'm not sure, but it sound like someone mentioned this as 500 point force for nids, so that is why I mention it. If no one was suggesting that this was a 500 point force, then ignore this point please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
3. I simply replied to you insults from earlier and I personally consider some of the suggested ideas presented at that point for Tyranids to be bad. Again please stop by the Tyranid board to exchange ideas and tactics and you will see i'm not the only one that feels that some of the ideas you mentioned simply would not work. Giving all your nids toxin sacs and other biomorphs to make them 'stronger' while forgetting that they remain extremely fragile is not a good tactical choice..
I agree with the sentiments of stopping by the Tyranid board, but good discussions about Tyranids can be had here as well. And as I posted before, I'd be surprised if folks didn't already deploy their hormies with toxin sacs. I can think of a few reasons, but S4 is a big advantage, and worth the relatively small cost per model, at least to me (they almost always perform admirably).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
5. Genestealers and Lictors are hardly basic troops, they have rending and better stats. And I still hold that if your opponent's gaunts are S4 (not Hormagants) then he is doing something wrong or must have some kind of plan to back that up. Because it's simply a bad idea and a very quick way to lose a lot of points fast. Considering that you can only 'glance' the vehicle that makes it even worst.
Well, genestealers are basic troops, and most Tyranid players will field at least one squad. Lictors are relatively rare, at least in my experience (I always try to field one, just because I find them entertaining). I wanted to back you up on the S4 gaunt (non-hormagaunts) point. The only reason I can think of for that is if you wanted to offset the strength loss from Devourers. But otherwise, Toxin Sacs are probably best avoided here.

Regular gaunts are best when they are cheap and numerous, IMO. (But not Without Number, what a ghastly waste of points and kill points).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou
6. Deployment and i'm sure many vet players will agree is a key part of winning games. I am an advocate of deployment ever since 4th edition when I realized just how important it is to deploy properly to win a battle. I'm sure the majority of veteran players will agree with that statement.
Deployment, List-Building, and Gameplay. You need to be skilled in all three to win a game. I don't think any one of these is more important than another. Rather, I think each one successively builds upon the other two. If you deploy like a master, but can't play your way out of a paper bag and have a terrible list, you'll probably still lose.

The rest of your post was pretty much spot on.

Now your views on the Venom Cannon ...
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 16:30   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: In response to the DoW debate.

Well I'm at Canadian Armoured Training base in Ontario, and so do not have my Tyranid codex on me right now.

However, I never said toxin sacs were the main anti-tank choice, but it is an anti-tank chocie. Just like a chimera with autocannon can be a tank hunter, but it's not the best option.

I never insulted you, I simply stated if you are having problems with shooting armies, you need to learn to face them better rather than complain.

Genestealers are basic troops, hence them being a troops choice. Lictors and ravenors are NOT basic troops, but they weren't in that statement, they were in my point about anti-tank CC.

Aye, deployment is important, but not as much as you make it out to be. I can line up my guys 7 inches apart, at the very back of my deployment area, and that isn't a very good tactic, it's just cheap. The guard get to deploy two platoons. But we NEED to have two platons, so we are paying for it. They could make an FAQ, and instead of complaining that my army needs a new codex, you could simply give some points needed in an FAQ (And if you did that, I'd agree with you). For example, maybe Guard get to deploy one troops platoon. That may work some kinks out, but it's just how the army is formatted.

However, if I was playing Grenadiers, that would mean two squads of storm troopers deployed first. It's not all guard, it's just some forms of it.
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Old 22 Dec 2008, 19:41   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: In response to the DoW debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akaiyou

4. Your friend has not read the tyranid codex or missed the part that says the broodlord is 0-1. You can not take 2, unless you are playing apocalypse or a multiple-detachment game. The winged tyrant is also 0-1. Point this out to him as currently he is 'cheating' by using 2 broodlords. The broodlord is a great unit so is the winged tyrant that's why we get a limit on how many we can take. It would be cheesy to take more.
The army list you posted is odd because it is illegal. He simply can't have 2 Broodlords. And the fact that he actually put 2 in there and that you allow him to makes me question your perception of Nids. Tell your friend to come by the Tyranid forum any time we'll give him some tips and exchange ideas with him. we are always happy to welcome one more to the hive mind.
Thanks Akaiyou, I'll be sure to mention that next time, no wonder I was being torn apart by two super-killy Broodlords. I'll point him towards TO's nid board next time I see him.
Well I think that this debate can be settled by saying that the new Guard codex is out in May, hopefully that will deal with the IGs' DoW cheeseiness
We really shouldn't have re-banged this topic but I understand why you did it Akaiyou, can we get a lock now AC?
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Old 23 Dec 2008, 03:55   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: In response to the DoW debate.

Sounds like a plan, glad this has been settled. Locked.
-AC
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