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Ogryns and 5th
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 03:47   #1 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Ogryns and 5th

Hello all,

I've not been by in a while, although I've slowly been working on my IG army. I've always liked the idea of the IG, and have usually stayed towards the all-human army. Lately I've been considering taking some Ogryns just for fun. In reading past posts I remember hearing that although they are tough in an assault, they usually get splattered by powerfist wielding characters.

My question, then, are they hardier with the new melee rules for 5th edition?

I don't think it'll really change my decision, I'm set on getting some Ogryns. I just wonder if anythings changed (don't have 5th yet).

Thanks for your insight and help!
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 11:38   #2 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

Hmmm...nothing really major has changed. I think things are ever so slightly worse for Ogryns now on account of the 'defenders react' rule (essentially, all models have the old 'counter-attack' special rule now) and also because casualties can be removed from unengaged models, thus leaving more enemy models in a position to strike back when their initiative turn come about (though an Ogryns initiative doesn't often beat much anyway).

On the plus side however, if you can inflict as many wounds as the enemy has models (or more), you can force that power fist wielding sergeant to roll his own individual save(s), thereby negating the 'buried power fist' tactic and potentially slaying him before he gets to use it.
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 13:14   #3 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

Hummm. The defenders react rule suits "horde" armies but the combat resolution suits elite troops.
I think the defenders react rule should be in their movement phrase instead of the assault or they have to pass an initiative test to use it.
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Old 19 Jul 2008, 18:42   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

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Originally Posted by manic-swede
Hummm. The defenders react rule suits "horde" armies but the combat resolution suits elite troops.
I think the defenders react rule should be in their movement phrase instead of the assault or they have to pass an initiative test to use it.
I dunno, I rather like it the way it is. I always thought Close Combat in 4th was a little awkward. 5th seems much easier to me.
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Old 20 Jul 2008, 01:47   #5 (permalink)
Kroot Shaper
 
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

Nice, thanks for those answers. It makes sense to me now. So it seems like melee is kind of "take the casualties from the back", sort of like Warhammer? No worries, glad about the end to hidden powerfists.

Eitherway, I'm going to grab a small unit of Ogryns! How can I resist?
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Old 20 Jul 2008, 04:04   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

no worries? The hidden powerfist is worst from most perspectives man.

It is nice that you can kill it now before it's the last model left but you still have to get they one peticular model to fail an armor save. So against a 10 man squad you'd have to cause 10 wounds to even force him to take one(assuming he does take the wounds on the sgt last).

But it also means that even if you lose 2-3 ogryns from the unit(and take out the closest models) the sgt with the powerfist will still get to attack.
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Old 20 Jul 2008, 04:20   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

Ogryns are actually very good if you play against a lot of people who like to park vehicles on your objectives late in the game hoping to contest. I feel like Ogryns really work best in their role from Dawn of War where their damage was best used against vehicles and buildings. If the Ogryns can Stun or Immobilize a vehicle they can continue to damage in in the opponents phase and the entire time they are hitting the rear armor. Especially since a lot unscrupulous Eldar players are using holofields to their advantage and ramming my vehicles I've taken to using a lot of meltas and Ogryns in my deployment zone to make them pay for taking advantage of the rule.
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Old 20 Jul 2008, 15:15   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

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Originally Posted by Johnnyboy
no worries? The hidden powerfist is worst from most perspectives man.

It is nice that you can kill it now before it's the last model left but you still have to get they one peticular model to fail an armor save. So against a 10 man squad you'd have to cause 10 wounds to even force him to take one(assuming he does take the wounds on the sgt last).

But it also means that even if you lose 2-3 ogryns from the unit(and take out the closest models) the sgt with the powerfist will still get to attack.
Mmm...I do rather think you've misunderstood me a little there bc99. It's not as though buried power fists are a thing of the past; you still can't single them out like you can independent characters, but if your Ogryn squad is significant in numbers and the enemy unit is of reduced size (five-man tactical squad for example) then it is feasible that you may inflict as many (or more) wounds as your opponent has models, thus forcing him to put some on power fist marines (or special/heavy weapons) and thereby forcing them to make their own personal saves.

Do bear in mind that its a Space Marine's power armour that will most likely save him in close combat against Ogryns, and we're only talking about inflicting wounds for the purposes of forcing saves on valuable models. A pack of six Ogryns charging your average eight-man Marine tactical squad (complete with las/plas and powerfist Sergeant) can expect to only realistically suffer one or two wounds at the most from those seven attacks coming their way before dishing out eighteen of their own. At equal weapon skill and strength six, they can expect to inflict eight wounds (on average), thus forcing every model to make his own save. I don't think this is a massive, game-breaking change, but I do think it's significant enough to warrant a mention.
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Old 21 Jul 2008, 12:10   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ogryns and 5th

My Ravensquig vs Ravenwing battle report demonstrates how fabulous the new system is.

Ravenwing charge in. They swing a lot of Power Swords around, and lop off an Ork Nob's head. Everything else bounces off.

The resulting Ork retaliation kills Sammael (3 wounds), and pulps ten Ravenwing. The resulting eleven armour saves the Ravenwing had to make resulted in both surviving veteran sergeants dying from Combat Resolution, whereas the Attack Bikes survived! In 4th, the Ravenwing would have taken 3-4 saves, with no chance of the Veteran Sergeants and their much-valued Power Weapons taking losses without everything else dying first.
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