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Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)
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Old 29 Apr 2008, 08:22   #1 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Hey all. I do seem to find myself a little obsessed with Drop Troops, particularly as reinforcements/shock troops. I have been considering a ground force, with Drop Troops coming in mid-game as reinforcements (capturing objectives, aiding existing ground forces, putting pressure on the enemy etc.). I don't know how effective this would be (I'm worried that the ground side part of the army will be taken down under superior fire, before the drop troops come in piece meal to an awaiting army). I do know that some armies tend to DS parts of their army in to support etc. but don't know how good Guard are at this.

I've had ideas about my army kicking around my head for ages regarding my army, and though it was about time I put them down and got some outside opinions on my thoughts so far. This post is a little long, so if you can bear with me, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's broken up into roughly 3 parts, and I'd appreciate help on any of them (so if you don't have time or an opinion on say Background, I'd still appreciate help on say Army Composition or Doctrines). Though they are related, if one falls through, I can still keep going with the other 2 ideas. Anything you can offer is more than I started with, so I'm grateful for any comment.

Also my army is roughly based on Australia (I mean, my planet is a little like Australia, and share other similarities), but I haven't been able to come up with a good name yet. I'd welcome any suggestions.



Background:
In terms of Background and Tactics, my army (haven't decided the name yet), is a bit different from the standard Guard tactics of gain as much ground as you can with as many soldiers as you can and hold at all costs. They tend to build up defensive positions around key objectives, and it is here that they place their heavier firepower and artillery. Once these bases are established and built up defensively with fortifications, Guard Companies (sizes of forces depend on mission at hand) and light vehicles spread out and gain intelligence of enemy positions and army movements. Once this is gathered, they operate similarly to the Raven Guard Space Marines Chapter (indeed, the similarity in attack style has caused some impressive successes in the one or two occasions they have worked together) or Tallarn Desert Raiders, that is launching quick strikes on the enemy, always attempting to avoid the brunt of enemy forces. It may also be said that they fight similarly to the Tau (whom they have fought with on many occasions due to their proximity to the Tau Empire), in that they fight fluidly and will happily give up ground if opposing forces are overwhelming. If an enemy is too eager to pursue them, they will lead them back to one of their defensive bases, where they put up a fierce defense, and with the aid of their protective measures and heavy weaponry, will usually destroy their unsuspecting opponent. It is a credit to their defensive fighting that they will rarely lose one of their defensive bases to anything short of a full scale assault by the enemy. It is at these defensive fortifications that the Imperial tendency to hold at all costs becomes evident, and they will often fight to the last. However, if the defences are overrun and broken and there is hope of reaching other defences, they will usually swallow their pride and withdraw. Those who are unwilling to retreat further will normally perform rearguard actions to buy their comrades time and defend the fortifications to the last.
It is also worth noting that they have connections with the Ordo Malleus, and notable Inquisitors have come from that planet. As such, although uncommon, it's not unheard of for Inquisitors in the area to offer support to them and the other way round. I have more for relationships with various Inquisition, relationship to nearby planets and such but it's not directly relevant at the moment.

I think that's mostly everything I have thought up that is of relevance at the moment. It's the first time I've written it all down, so there are many points that aren't finalised or I've just expanded upon then. It may also be worth noting that I am basing them roughly on the Australian Army and that they make use of many specialised Companies, such as Mechanised and Drop Troop companies (both used mostly in aggressive styles in their Guerrilla tactics).


Army Composition:
My current thoughts are to make a mixed army of ground forces (in the lightning attack style/scouting style mentioned above) with Drop Troop support. The idea being that the initial ground forces are either scouting out enemy positions, movements, favourable positions or launching an attack on a strategically important point or enemy troops. The Drop Troops are on stand by for immediate support if they run into larger forces (which you invariably do when you're attacking the enemy in raid like attacks). I'm also considering allying an Inquisitor in, so if you think it just wouldn't make much sense, that gives an option, as Inquisitors can order what they want and swift support if needed is something I'd like to have for sure. Currently I'm debating whether to have the ground forces made up of Light Infantry (which would probably be using that doctrine), or light vehicles such as Chimeras and maybe a supporting Hellhound or so, or a mix of both.


Doctrines:
As for doctrines, here's what I've looked at so far...

Restricted Troops - Special Weapon squads
To deep-strike. Or to cause some concern early on.

Drop Troops
Obviously. Thinking along the lines of a Platoon, Sentinels and Special Weapons Squads. Obviously not all of them in a low points game. I'm thinking of making my basic army pure Drop Troops then expanding to this army idea.

Iron Discipline
I didn't mention this did I? Basically, Officers receive training, and most are specially picked from past-experience for promotion, and as such receive a lot of respect from their soldiers. It also works with the whole pride and stubbornness in defence, and they'll keep fighting to the last. One would think it would complement the Vox-network in gameplay as well (I didn't mention that either did I? - basically they are organised and need to keep reacting to new information about enemy movements so they can best meet them. It's when the enemy hacks into the channel that things start going really badly for them :P).

Close Order Drill
"Argh! Don't do it man!" I know this doctrine has a lot of negative thoughts attributed to it due to the fact that it's free and possibly the most abused doctrine available. I originally overlooked it. But then I got wondering about the possibility of using it to represent that each squad fights together and are bonded by mateship, the horrors they've experienced and such and so fight as a team, protecting each others backs and helping each other out (would explain why they all have to be in base contact). However, while I don't mind the idea, the fact that the doctrine is free and abused is giving me somewhat of an aversion to it.

Light Infantry
Ah! Back to one of the main doctrines I'm considering. Mainly for use by the original ground forces. It fits the theme I'd say (though not much use if I go with light vehicles). Don't have much to say about it though...

Sharpshooters
Iffy... There are 2 reasons I can think of that would justify it. One, higher tech available to these Guardsmen, such as targeters or different guns (unlikely...) that assist in the accuracy of their shot. The other would be that these Guardsmen are experienced, well trained and specifically chosen for these missions, kinda like Veterans yet not at that extra BS level yet. Half-veterans . Could just be used on the DT's though, to give them a feel of eliteness as support troops.

Veterans
Possible, and could be quite interesting and fit with the theme. A few Veteran squads (could be split between the DT and ground forces as well), that are experienced at this type of warfare and assisting lead the less experienced squads. Hadn't considered it much before now though. Maybe one DS and one Infiltrate...?

Cameleoline
Was just thinking about ground units concealing themselves, giving a real stealthy feel to the ground forces. Could create a nice theme combined with Light Infantry.

Carapace
Here I was thinking about heavily armoured Drop Troops (as they're coming down into the middle of the action) for added protection. While I like the idea for the Drop Troops, not so sure about the Ground Forces, though if the Carapace is the same weight/bulk or less than normal flak armour, it could quite feasibly work. However, it would ruin the idea of Light Infantry, so would only use if I went with a Light Armour ground force.

Obviously I can't take all of them, so I'm looking for opinions about them. I'm thinking so far of SW, DT, ID and LI, but obviously that's just my first thoughts and there's still an available doctrine slot. I'm also still thinking about adding in some of the others I've left out. I definately haven't decided on those doctrines.



If you read this far AFTER reading most of the rest of my long-winded post, I'm very appreciative indeed. Thanks for any comments you can give me.
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Old 29 Apr 2008, 12:14   #2 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Okay, so your background info seems pretty solid. I like the Australian theme. In the old codex, there is a regiment known as the "bushmen" who basically look like Steve Erwin. You might be able to use that for some inspiration.

On to the doctrines. I was planning on constructing a drop troops army myself, before I learned of the exorbitant prices of Elysians, so here are some ideas.

Special Weapons Squads:
Deep striking 3 meltaguns behind an enemy tank is always satisfying. Sharpshooters doctrine comes in handy here.
Deep striking a demolition charge next to a squad of terminators is even more fun.

Light Infantry:
This isn't really much use in a drop troops army, because drop troops don't exactly need to infiltrate. The sniper rifle can be handy, but you can just put group them in a SW squad. I know it makes sense fluffwise for airborne units to be light infantry, but it doesn't work in game play.

Iron Discipline:
This advantage is not conferred through the vox network, so it isn't as much use as it first seems. (hence it being ridiculously cheap)

Close Order Drill:
This is the 41st Millennium. A gamer with any sense of pride will not take this doctrine because troops do not practice this in the 41st Millennium. Sure GW came up with the absurd idea of Mordians, but no normal soldier would submit to suicide for the sake of looking good. It doesn't help that the hammerhead pie plate can blow away an entire squad when it is packed tight.

Sharpshooters:
IMO this fits perfectly in a drop troops army, as airborne units tend to be elite in nature. Airborne Rangers in the U.S. Army receive more training than infantrymen, and you must qualify as a sharpshooter with your weapon before being accepted in to ranger school.

Cameleoline:
This works nicely with Light Infantry, because your infantry can infiltrate in the direction of some nice cover. It is also fluffy because it makes sense that light infantrymen would rely more on camouflage than bulky armor for their protection.

Veterans:
IMO this doesn't really work with the light infantry doctrine, because they can already infiltrate. It might do well in a drop troops army as representing things such as Green Beret squads.

Carapace Armor:
Doesn't work with light infantry, so you can scratch that.
Does work with drop troop armies. Airborne units are usually isolated, so they need something to make them more survivable. This is seen with the Harakoni and Elysians, the most notable drop troops regiments. This is also the most expensive doctrine, so it would limit the number of men you can field. This is alright in a DT army though because your men are supposed to be the elite airborne units, not some rabble raised on a feral world.

A doctrine you might want to consider is the Hardened Fighters doctrine. Yes it is very expensive, but it works well in a drop troops army when it is put on the command squads. You will be able to wade through weaker enemies, and actually tie up space marines for a little bit.

Rough Riders also might fit nicely into an Australian/Guerilla warfare type army. Just mount them on bikes instead. Honestly, I swear there is a Polish guy working for GW, because only the Poles where brave enough to charge tanks with horses.
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 02:12   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

personally I take Ogryns but thats just me
my $.02 ;D
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 03:37   #4 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Quote:
Veterans:
IMO this doesn't really work with the light infantry doctrine, because they can already infiltrate. It might do well in a drop troops army as representing things such as Green Beret squads.
Because veterans don't have any other bonus qualities like a BS bonus, a Leadership bonus, 3 special slots (plus a heavy) an the fact that they don't have to actually pay for their infiltrate ability...

For the morale aspect have you considered chem-inhalers representing unbreakable morale as opposed to drugs?
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 03:43   #5 (permalink)
Zen
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Zen's suggestion:
Doctrines
- Veterans
- Drop Troops
- Light Infantry
- Cameleoline
- Iron Discpline

Veterans
A chaper and better option than Storm Troopers especially when you want Cameloeline and Light Infantry Doctrine on them. Plus you can give them 1 more special weapons than Storm Troopers can and a Heavy Weapons :P

Drop Troop
It's free and it allows Guard units (Hardened Veterans and Infantry Squads) to Deepstrike along with Sentinels if you got some of them. Good for objective capturing. But whether you can to take heavy weapons that's up to you.

Light Infantry
Not really good but not bad either. If you feel it's too dangerous to Deepstrike, you can Infiltrate instead and it gets you through terrain better.

Cameleoline
Mmmmm....more cover save but make sure you're planning in terrains otherwise it will be quite a waste.

Iron Discipline
It's OK but you must keep your Infantry within the Ld range of the Officer but if you want an OK Ld, just upgrade those sergeants to Veteran Sergeant. But that's up to you. Chem Inhalers could be a better option but the problem is how you're going to fit it in yout fluff.

My 0.02 cents
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 09:00   #6 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Thanks for the replies! I do have a couple of comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallessian
Iron Discipline:
This advantage is not conferred through the vox network, so it isn't as much use as it first seems. (hence it being ridiculously cheap).
I've heard this before, but I haven't seen any evidence of this opinion. Is it in a FAQ or something?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallessian
A doctrine you might want to consider is the Hardened Fighters doctrine. Yes it is very expensive, but it works well in a drop troops army when it is put on the command squads. You will be able to wade through weaker enemies, and actually tie up space marines for a little bit.
Well, it may be useful, but I can't see any real justification with my fluff and that's what matters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallessian
Rough Riders also might fit nicely into an Australian/Guerilla warfare type army. Just mount them on bikes instead. Honestly, I swear there is a Polish guy working for GW, because only the Poles where brave enough to charge tanks with horses.
I have considered Rough Riders. I wouldn't however put them on bikes (just don't like the general look/feel of Guard bikers). If I did go with them, I'd keep the Australian theme a bit, by either sticking with the horses (Australian Light Cavalry), or Giant Lizards/Reptiles, as Reptiles do thrive in Australia, and in a bigger area, on a fictional planet with different creatures, it makes sense to have giant reptiles adapted to the habitat. Cold Ones are expensive though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ilveIG159
personally I take Ogryns but thats just me
my $.02 ;D
No Ogryns for me. No Ratlings either. Not that I mind Ogryns that much, but they don't fit in this army.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan
For the morale aspect have you considered chem-inhalers representing unbreakable morale as opposed to drugs?
Ah the old chem-inhalers for solid discipline. Nah, I don't think I'd go with that. I don't want my regiment to be superhuman or anything like that, just normal Guardsmen (though that's a bit hard to define with the massive variety). Stubborn on the defence, keep going even when their comrades are going down (maybe a bit of a revenge thing going on...) but otherwise just normal humans.


Ok, I'm probably leaning away from Carapace and COD (not that I was ever considering it that much in the first place)... But that still leaves quite a few doctrines to narrow down.
Zen - No consideration of adding SW squads?


It's been great to have such a large input with my doctrine choices, and a comment about my background info. Anyone got any thoughts on the feasibility of a mixed DT and ground forces army? Or strongly recommend I stick to one or the other? And any comments about whether light vehicles, infantry or a mix for ground forces would be better (both game-wise and fitting in with background/theme)? Just interested in some opinions.
Anyway, thanks for the replies so far!
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 11:26   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Well, I tend to take the drop troops doctrine with my army, even though I also deploy 2 armored fist squads and a Russ MBT. I use the drop troops to represent something akin to Ranger detachments who are assigned a specific target and drop in ahead of the rest of the company. They receive the sharpshooters doctrine to better represent their "elite" status, though they basically are still just your average guardsman.

Concerning Iron Discipline. I'm actually not sure where it says this, I can't find it in the FAQ anywhere, it is just a standing rule at my hobby shop. We say that Iron Discipline represents the officers commanding presence, and therefore can't be used through the vox caster. If you want to follow the rules word for word though then you can use it.

And chem inhalers DO NOT represent higher soldier morale/dedication. They represent drug users. Die hards represents a units dedication the the Emperor. Using chem inhalers to represent the dedication of your soldiers is abusing the doctrine system, and won't gain you many friends.

As for Hardened Fighters. The increased weapon skill could represent increased close combat training, which is received by modern airborne troops.
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Old 30 Apr 2008, 14:50   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

it states in the FAQ that only the leadship of the officer is transfered though the vox. Special rules such as a commissar's ld bonus, trademark item, and iron discpline(though it is not specifically mentioned) are not transfered.

If you want to have a leadship bonus of some kind looking into die-hards. It's more expensive but you're drop troops, you don't run, you're surrounded there's nowhere to run. I tend to rationalize die-hards that way when the regiment is made of drop troopers.

I use hardened fighters and i'll say it greatly increases survivalbility. I don't think I've lost a game yet with them. I play against marines and chaos more than anything and you'd be surprised at how much a difference needing 4 rather than 3 is.
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Old 05 May 2008, 08:10   #9 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Sorry about the lateness of my reply, been a little preoccupied... Here's my responses to the latest posts though. I'll post some stuff later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallessian
Concerning Iron Discipline. I'm actually not sure where it says this, I can't find it in the FAQ anywhere, it is just a standing rule at my hobby shop. We say that Iron Discipline represents the officers commanding presence, and therefore can't be used through the vox caster. If you want to follow the rules word for word though then you can use it.
It's also the skill and respect generated by the Commander, and a skilled general can give just as good orders over range than having to be right next to the troops. Especially when they're dropping in. Having it as his precense is only one way to represent the doctrine, and I can't see anything wrong with conveying it through voxes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallessian
As for Hardened Fighters. The increased weapon skill could represent increased close combat training, which is received by modern airborne troops.
It would have to be a fair amount of training. I mean it's generally a lot easier and mroe important to train troops in shooting than hand to hand anyway. If the Cadians don't even have it, then I'm inclined to think of it like the codex describes, people from a violent society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnyboy
it states in the FAQ that only the leadship of the officer is transfered though the vox. Special rules such as a commissar's ld bonus, trademark item, and iron discpline(though it is not specifically mentioned) are not transfered.
It doesn't make any mention of the Officer's training/skill/competence/respect/inspiration etc. not being transferred through the vox. It's completly different from those other examples. A Commissar can't be seen through a vox and poses no threat to the squad. Likewise the squad isn't going to be thinking about the Officer's trademark item while speaking to him in a tense situation. I see no reason why it isn't transferred through the vox.
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Old 11 May 2008, 11:31   #10 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Need help with creating my Army (Background, Army Composition and Doctrines)

Well it's been a while since I've done much developing for my IG. Don't have much time at the minute, but here's what I'm thinking.

I need to decide roughly how my forces will be built.

Option 1)
Drop Troop Infantry (Platoon + Sw's...) with light vehicles support in the form of Chimeras and Hellhounds. Could also contain Inquisitorial ST's mounted in Chimeras/Rhinos.

Option 2)
Drop Troop Infantry (Platoon + SW's...) with light infantry. Possibly also Inquisitorial ST's on foot (though can't infiltrate).

Option 3)
A mix of the above. Eg. IG ground forces of light infantry, with mounted Inquisitorial ST's and maybe Hellhounds or other vehicles (or other combinations of mounted and ground based).

I'm thinking about a mixture, though not sure. With weak vehicles, I'm hesitant to take too few of them for fear of them all being shot down straight away.

As for doctrines, I'm undecided. I'm thinking about these ATM:
Drop troops
Special Weapons

UNDECIDED
Sharpshooters
Light Infantry (Leaning towards this)
Cameleoline
Iron Discipline
Veterans (Hesitant about this. Thinking one squad may be enough and add flavour to the force)

Really, I'm thinking it will come down to the make up of the force as to what doctrines I'll take...

Any advice is more than welcome.
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