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Powerful melee hq
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 08:00   #1 (permalink)
Shas'Vre
 
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Default Powerful melee hq

Ok was messing with the idea of melee gaurd and made one pricy but powerful hq.

Heroic senior w/ pfist, bp, carpase
Vetrans x4 w/ medic, standard, bp, ccw, carpase
Psyker w/ honorifica, forcewep, bp, carpase
Commissar w/ pfist, bp, carpase
Priest w/ evis, relic, bp
Tech w/ bp
Tech w/ bp

Ok gave em all Hardened fighters for the bonus ws

515 pts

stats

14 wounds all with a 4+ save, 2 with 3+

Attacks ona charge
20x standard str 3
17x str 6 pfist
6 str 3 forcewep
9 str 3 powerwep

Now i gotta say this can demolish a squad very very quickly

I dont believe thats its worth the points however.

Up to you to decide toss em ina chim and they might do pretty well
combined with a large unit of roughriders and lots of infantry

Also if you really wanted to you can have 3 commissars in the squad which would cost quite a bit more but add 10 more powerfist attacks.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 08:19   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
Heroic senior w/ pfist, bp, carpase
Bad move. HSOs are Independent Characters, and can be picked out in melee. This invariably means they will be, and they will die fast.

Quote:
Vetrans x4* w/ medic, standard, bp, ccw, carpase
Standard Bearer should have the Regimental Standard, as it is the single greatest piece of equip in the Armoury.
Don't give them Bolt Pistols, it's a waste of points.

Quote:
Psyker w/ honorifica, forcewep, bp, carpase
Good. Again, no Bolt Pistol.

Quote:
Commissar w/ pfist, bp, carpase
Again, good. Bolt Pistol isn't essential, but you may as well.

Quote:
Priest w/ evis, relic, bp
Holy Relic... never tried it myself, but should work. Another who doesn't really suit a Bolt Pistol.

Quote:
Tech w/ bp
Tech w/ bp
As neither of these can be part of the squad, it's a no-go.

Quote:
Also if you really wanted to you can have 3 commissars in the squad which would cost quite a bit more but add* 10 more powerfist attacks.
No you couldn't. You may have one Commissar per Squad.

Here's my own assaulty HQ:

HSO with laspistol, Power Weapon.
Medic, with Laspistol and cc weapon.
Two Guardsman with Laspistol, cc weapon.
Veteran with Laspistol, cc weapoon and Regimental Standard.
117pts.

Commissar with Laspistol and Power Fist. Attached to HSO.
60pts.

Preacher with Eviscerator. Attached to HSO.
65pts.

Sanctioned Psyker with Force Weapon and Honorifica Imperialis. Attached to HSO.
62pts.

Total: 304pts.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 08:38   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Man for peing a vetran you dont seem to know that much about the hq's

1st off techpriests can join the hq why couldn't they Independant Characters after all

2nd Independant Commissars (purchased with doc pts) 50 pts each but are Independant characters

This could make your unit size go up2 12 not bad but i wouldn't worry about the IC status on the HSO seeing as there will b a total of 6 IC's in the unit it isnt gonna matter which the enemy picks and i dont see the point of having 6 str 3 powerwep attacks when you could have 6 str 6 pfist attacks.

Reg standard is good but is it really worth the 20 pts its only +1 resolution.

The carpase can be droped as it would save 60 pts but 33% saves compared to 50% when you assault a squad of marines.

Heh but ya you should really read your codex more and you would know that 3 comissars are totally possible to have in 1 squad.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 08:44   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
Man for peing a vetran you dont seem to know that much about the hq's

1st off techpriests can join the hq why couldn't they Independant Characters after all

2nd Independant Commissars (purchased with doc pts) 50 pts each but are Independant characters
You may only have a single Independent Character per squad. The Officer of a Command Squad counts as an Independent Character, but cannot leave the squad unless it is completely destroyed.

Quote:
Reg standard is good but is it really worth the 20 pts its only +1 resolution.
That "only +1 resolution" killed a Carnifex for me. It's worth it.

Quote:
The carpase can be droped as it would save 60 pts but 33% saves compared to 50% when you assault a squad of marines.
Carapace isn't worth it. Trust me, I've number-crunched. Whilst you take fewer casualties, those you do take are worth more, and the VP totals earned by your opponents are the same. Interestingly, the VP difference your opponent earns from ignoring your save is nearly double that which he earns shooting with AP 5 weapons...

Quote:
Heh but ya you should really read your codex more and you would know that* 3 comissars are totally possible to have in 1 squad.
If You read the Codex, you would see the rules for Advisors in the top-left of page 40.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 08:58   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Ok 1st of all i just read the rule book(4th ed) on IC's again there is nothing about only 1 IC per squad.

2nd i wasnt talking about taking the commissars as advisors i was talking about taking them as elites then having all 3 join the same squad which is totally acceptable.

Man dono what your trying to think but here are some pointers

Dont toss your hq into combat with a carniflex unless it has 2 wounds or less

Carpase is effective on more expensive units because it raises thier total points cost a much lower precentage.
Eg: consript with carpase = 6 pts 2 from carpase thats 33% increase
rough rider with carpase = 13 pts 2 from carpase thats 15% increase

In effect on a more expensive unit the 50% protection offered by carpase to the
standard ap5 infantry weapon is very effective unless an alternate means of protection is provided such as a chimera.

+1 resolution isnt that effective when your attacks borderline 50+
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 09:14   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
Ok 1st of all i just read the rule book(4th ed) on IC's again there is nothing about only 1 IC per squad.
It is a rule that is enforced in every GW I've been to, and every Gaming Club I've taken part in. It is, if not official, a widely-accepted "unwritten rule".

Besides... what's the point of having 6 ICs in one squad? One Griffon Mortar shell would annihilate them all...

...the trick to building an "Assaulty" Guard HQ is not to be the biggest bad-a** on the block, it is to be deadly, but not so deadly that they consider you a priority target.

Quote:
2nd i wasnt talking about taking the commissars as advisors i was talking about taking them as elites then having all 3 join the same squad which is totally acceptable.
See above statement, it's unsporting, beardy powergaming.

Quote:
Man dono what your trying to think but here are some pointers

Dont toss your hq into combat with a carniflex unless it has 2 wounds or less
It was on 4. Power Weapon took one off, Power Fists took two off, combat resolution killed it. If you played WFB, you'd know never to underestimate the power of combat-resolution.

Quote:
Carpase is effective on more expensive units because it raises thier total points cost a much lower precentage.
* *Eg: consript with carpase = 6 pts 2 from carpase thats 33% increase
* * * * *rough rider with carpase = 13 pts 2 from carpase* thats 15% increase
Not entirely sure what you're on about here... Carapace isn't bought "per model", it is bought "per squad", thus most units pay 2pts per model, but command sections pay 4pts per model...

...fine, let's do the numbers.

10 Marines, each making 1 attack in close combat:

vs normal Guard:
6.667 hits, 4.444 wounds, 2.963 Guardsmen fail Armour Save. VP earned = 17.778

vs Carapace:
6.667 hits, 4.444 wounds, 2.222 Guardsmen fail Armour Save. VP earned = 17.778

So, if both Carapace and non-Carapace get their save, then there's no VP difference. Carapace suffer fewer casualties, but they are worth more, so it balances out.

Marines fire Bolters:

vs normal Guard:
6.667 hits, 4.444 wounds, no saves. VP earned = 26.667.

vs Carapace:
6.667 hits, 4.444 wounds, 2.222 Guardsmen fail Armour Save. VP earned = 17.778

VP difference = 8.889.

So, it seems when you face Bolters, it is better to have Carapace.

Marines fire 10 Heavy Bolter shots (to keep the ratio the same):

vs normal Guard:
6.667 hits, 5.556 wounds, no save. VP earned = 33.333.

vs Carapace:
6.667 hits, 5.556 wounds, no save. VP earned = 44.444.

VP difference: 11.111

So, clearly, it is far better not to bring Carapace if you are facing weapons that can negate it.

Apologies for my earlier comment about being "nearly double," I was referring to the Carapace + Sharpshooters combo.


Quote:
In effect on a more expensive unit the 50% protection offered by carpase to the
standard ap5 infantry weapon is very effective unless an alternate means of protection is provided such as a chimera.
I'll let you decide for yourself via statistics.

Quote:
+1 resolution isnt that effective when your attacks borderline 50+
Spoken like someone who has never played WFB...

I have seen a 5-man Terminator squad take 96 attacks from Gaunts... and win the Combat. By one kill.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 09:26   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Ok this unwriten rule didn't exist at gamesday for the past 3 years there was always a dracon and an archon hopping arround in a raider 2gether or chaos used the same combo with lt's

Now i know that carpase isnt very effective on standard infantry

The point was that the more expensive the unit the more it will benefit from a higher save.

Yes terminators can survive 96 gaunt attacks its a posability the point is that when your running a diverse selection of armor ignoring weapons then +1 resolution isnt really an issue.

I can spend the 20 pts on something more worthwhile such as a holy relic which gives everything +1 attack which will have a much more substancial effect.


Ah yes plz dont try to inforce your house rules of 1 IC per squad your really gonna mess up some novice and he wont know whats what.

Ah yes back to the griffon ya it would destroy this squad fairly easily even with carpase the great thing is that if its not in combat it will be in a chim which may be destroyed but there is always cover.
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 09:36   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
Ok this unwriten rule didn't exist at gamesday for the past 3 years there was always a dracon and an archon hopping arround in a raider 2gether or chaos used the same combo with lt's
Tournaments are the breeding ground of beardiness and powergaming. If that's how you play, fine, but I would most likely garotte you for pulling something like that off in my local club.

Quote:
Now i know that carpase isnt very effective on standard infantry

The point was that the more expensive the unit the more it will benefit from a higher save.
In theory... but what happens against Str 6 guns with Ap 4 or more?

Quote:
Yes terminators* can survive 96 gaunt attacks its a posability the point is that when your running a diverse selection of armor ignoring weapons then +1 resolution isnt really an issue.
...what!?

Will you bloody well read my post! My point is that even with all those attacks, it was one point of combat resolution that won the fight... never underestimate that! My banner has won me more fights than I care to remember... and more than once have I rolled a Morale Check, failed, then suddenly realised "oh, wait, I have a Regimental banner!", and subsequently not had to test.

Quote:
I can spend the 20 pts on something more worthwhile such as a holy relic which gives everything +1 attack which will have a much more substancial effect.
Considering you seem to be trying for a HQ that runs into 1000+ points, why not splash out?

Quote:
Ah yes plz dont try to inforce your house rules of 1 IC per squad your really gonna mess up some novice and he wont know whats what.
Powergaming should be stamped out, either figuratively, or by application of boot to fingers. Whilst there's no rule saying you can't, there's no rule saying you can't play 40K by yourself when everyone else shuns you either...

...besides, it's bloody stupid.

Quote:
Ah yes back to the griffon ya it would destroy this squad fairly easily even with carpase the great thing is that if its not in combat it will be in a chim which may be destroyed but* there is always cover.
Speaking from a lot of very painful pieces of self-experience, cover means jack-all. If the enemy really want your HQ to go down, it will go down. Considering all this stuff you're putting into it, it will go down fast.

Oh, and you know those Techpriests, thanks to 4th Editions "Majority armour" rule, only have a 4+ armour save against shooting? Just thought I'd let you know...
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 09:41   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

Man you just don't seem to get it.

I would like to ask you nicely to refrain* from replying to my posts,
just a common courtesy thing.

There is no point to your reply's 1st you complain how ineffective the unit is then you change your arguement saying that its powergaming.

We'll powergaming = Unstoppable units which have very few weaknesses aka 5 monsterous creatures in a 1500 pt game.

This however isnt powergaming this hq costs a little over 400 pts and uses 3 FoC's
and 4 doctrine points.

So really man it would save me a lot of time if i didnt have to argue with you i dislike when people are wrong and dont understand it.

Owell man ignorance is bliss
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Old 21 Apr 2005, 09:42   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Powerful melee hq

There is a rule that is rarely used on forums: if you don't want replies, don't post in the first place.

As I am the most active Guard fan on the forum, and the "unofficial" Guard forum mod, you can bet that I will, at some point or other, read and/or reply to everything on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
There is no point to your reply's 1st you complain how ineffective the unit is then you change your arguement saying that its powergaming.

We'll powergaming = Unstoppable units which have very few weaknesses aka 5 monsterous creatures in a 1500 pt game.
The definition of things like "Beary", "Cheezy" and "Powergaming" depend on the person. For me, it doesn't have to be a "combat monster", just totally abusive of the rules... like having 6 ICs in one squad. It may "technically" be legal... but then so is me bringing 3 Basilisks on a board with a 120" gap between armies. The rules say its fair, so it must be okay...
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