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Mobile Guard
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 00:05   #1 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Mobile Guard

Alright, basically, I need help deciding on my army composition and tactics...

I don't want to go with a static IG firing line, as that seems rather boring (with the only tactical decisions being who to shoot). So, basically I wanted to go for a rather more mobile list but seeing as I don't have much experience with guard, I was hoping for some advice.

As I see it, one can create a mobile list through the use of doctrines.
Mechanised looks interesting (besides the money involved with buying all those chimeras) but I still have my doubts (like how mobile it would actually turn out to be or whether the chimeras would be better used as stationary bunkers/weapon platforms).
Light Infantry I've heard mentioned but it doesn't seem to support mobility more than static...
Drop Troops is an interesting idea, not quite sure whether I want to give up tanks but deep striking sounds like a fun way to play. On a related note, how reliable are drop troops in the 41st millennium? I mean with Valkyries being able to hover over a single spot and grav chutes and training of specialised regiments, is it a rather suicidal tactic or do the drop troops have a fair chance to survive?

But besides those doctrine formations, what are other ways to create a mobile list? How good are standard infantry at being mobile, or do they really need something like Mechanised or Drop Troops to make them effective?

Thanks for any thoughts or ideas you can give me. Of course, if in the end nothing appeals to me I'll just grab some Daemonhunters and induct the Guard like my original plan.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 00:19   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

I would start with a normal mech list if your new to guard and once you get expeirence with mechanized guard you could move onto what your planning now, you should be able to find tactica from TO's finest on the sticky below.

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=23092.0

If your looking for fluff you could always use a tallarn regiment called the grave diggers, they striped armor on the chimeras to attack the mobile eldar, there for you would easily be able to use light infantry and mechanized.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 00:31   #3 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Drop Troops are not typically regarded as cannon fodder in the 41st millenium. Penal regiments might be dropped into the meat grinder to soften up or otherwise distract the enemy, but proper drop troops are generally regarded as elite infanty (The Elysians and Harakoni being notable examples); training and equipment for a drop trooper is greater than the average rifleman and so they are more highly valued.

Don't be fooled into thinking Drop Troops are 'mobile' though. Once they're on the ground they're no different to any other infantry. If you want mobility, vehicles really are your best bet. Mechanised armies aren't actually much more expensive than 'standard' varieties because points-wise the average Chimera typically weighs in just shy of 100 points. Your other options are a great number of rough riders (perhaps making use of IA5's siege army list?) or a grenadiers army equipped with Centaurs. Centaurs are fast vehicles so it's probably the most mobile of your options, and it'd certainly make a daring and aggressive army, but it's fragile.
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 00:51   #4 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Thanks for the quick replies! My previous post was just a question to see whether that type of army list was possible. I don't know if I'll go that direction yet or a more standardised direction. I have had a look at the sticky posts and some of the information has been quite informative. There's a lot to digest though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Don't be fooled into thinking Drop Troops are 'mobile' though. Once they're on the ground they're no different to any other infantry. If you want mobility, vehicles really are your best bet. Mechanised armies aren't actually much more expensive than 'standard' varieties because points-wise the average Chimera typically weighs in just shy of 100 points.
Drop Troops however, do get in close to the enemy and objectives and are a lot more of a close up army. I regard them mobile in the fact that they go where you want them fairly quickly and you can spread them out and attack on multiple fronts if needed. They take the fight to the enemy basically. (on a fluff-wise note, do they make better or worse use than carapace than standard infantry? thinking of harakoni here...)

Mechanised is also a real possibility, although you wouldn't get covering fire unless you disembarked a squad or two at the start. Which reminds me, is there anything against taking heavy weapon platoons or support squads in a mechanised army? They don't seem like a great option but I was just wondering. The thing with mechanised is that it seems a lot more expensive to collect than a standard army due to all the vehicles.

Are there any 'standard' lists without doctrines that can be fairly mobile? Say an armoured tank advance with infantry behind or whatever. I'm not sure that standard infantry are that great at mobility though without doctrines...

(the reason I asked about the survivability of drop troops is that I don't want to be a commander that just kills off half the troops every battle)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comissar Gaunt to an unknown Fortis Binary trooper
"Hold Fast!"
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"So kill them back!"
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 01:59   #5 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Well drop troops are ok if your really good at guard.
But the lack of troops to use in the first couple of turns is a disadvantage.
The unpredictability of reenforcement rolls is another factor.
Last guard are soft, very soft, and can be eaten very easily by very little fire.

Having loads of chimeras would work well be cause you could have an army that rushes and then could drop of the troops and use their masses fire power to chew up a less mobile army (and never forget tank shocking them).
It's also safer because you could get a cover save from the vehicles and they pack some heavy weapons to boot.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 02:34   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

My typical guard list will usually consist of a few support squads bunkered down in cover and then around 40-60 infantry with assault weapons (melta, plasmas, flamers) moving up the field to engage at close range with Russ and Storm Trooper support. It's not necessarily the most efficient way to run the army, but its more fun to me.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 08:38   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaphas Cain Hero of the Imperium
Well drop troops are ok if your really good at guard.
But the lack of troops to use in the first couple of turns is a disadvantage.
The unpredictability of reenforcement rolls is another factor.
Last guard are soft, very soft, and can be eaten very easily by very little fire.
I disagree, having no models on the table until turn 2 is in no way an inhibiting factor as far as I'm concerned; it's only a problem if you have some models on the table from the start of the battle while the rest of the army has yet to deploy. If you've got nothing on the table, what's the worst that can happen? Your opponent's units will just wander about aimlessly with nothing to shoot at nor manoeuvre around. If there are objectives on the table he'll move towards them...perfect for when you deep strike right on top of them with special weapons in hand.

[hr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
...on a fluff-wise note, do they make better or worse use than carapace than standard infantry? thinking of harakoni here
Better or worse? Do you mean 'do drop troops use carapace more regularly than footslogger regiments?' I would say no - Weight and bulk are important considerations in the back of a Valkyrie, even more so when you're relying on a grav chute to break your rate of descent enough to land safely.

From a gameplay perspective however, I can see how carapace might be more useful to a Drop Troop army than a 'standard' army - While there are altogether too many AP4 weapons out there to make carapace really worthwhile, close combat is a forgone conclusion for a Drop Troops and the added protection will be of use to them.
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 09:16   #8 (permalink)
Cal
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Norman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
...on a fluff-wise note, do they make better or worse use than carapace than standard infantry? thinking of harakoni here
Better or worse? Do you mean 'do drop troops use carapace more regularly than footslogger regiments?' I would say no - Weight and bulk are important considerations in the back of a Valkyrie, even more so when you're relying on a grav chute to break your rate of descent enough to land safely.

From a gameplay perspective however, I can see how carapace might be more useful to a Drop Troop army than a 'standard' army - While there are altogether too many AP4 weapons out there to make carapace really worthwhile, close combat is a forgone conclusion for a Drop Troops and the added protection will be of use to them.
Well, Harakoni seem to be able to make good use of it, so it can't be that heavy and bulky if one of the major drop regiments gears up in it. Plus the armoured look goes with the whole elite idea . Anyway, I was more asking about the gameplay perspective. Having heard that it's never really worth it for standard infantry, I was wondering whether it would be of any use to drop troops who will be close in, likely in combat at some stage and required to hold on to objectives.

[hr]

Anyway, it seems my current options for a mobile army are:

Drop Troops - Although this would probably require a bit of converting. I'm assuming enclosed helmets or some type of face protection would at least be mandatory. I also get the impression that they are really only useful in an all drop troops army and that it's not worth having stuff start on the ground (there goes my idea of an elite scout force infiltrating behind enemy lines and calling in drop troops once they find the objective...)

Mechanised - An attractive idea (doesn't seem quite as interesting as drop troops), yet gives me the opportunity to use Veterans and I don't have to bother about converting/replacing all the heads. Really I'm not too fussed about the addition of a Leman Russ over the Drop Troops, I prefer the Chimeras and Hellhound. I'm unsure about the money involved in buying all those vehicles though...

Foot slogging - Basically give everyone assault weapons and charge towards the enemy and objectives, possibly using meat shields (like conscripts) to thin the casualties on more important units. Still seems like a rather suicidal and ruthless tactic, while I prefer to keep men alive for future operations.

Please tell me if there's any more tactics or if you have something to add to the above.
Thanks everyone for being so helpful so far!

P.S. The unpredictability of drop troops isn't too big a concern for me. It adds a bit of variation in games.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comissar Gaunt to an unknown Fortis Binary trooper
"Hold Fast!"
"They're killing us!"
"So kill them back!"
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 11:48   #9 (permalink)
Shas'O
 
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
Well, Harakoni seem to be able to make good use of it, so it can't be that heavy and bulky if one of the major drop regiments gears up in it. Plus the armoured look goes with the whole elite idea . Anyway, I was more asking about the gameplay perspective. Having heard that it's never really worth it for standard infantry, I was wondering whether it would be of any use to drop troops who will be close in, likely in combat at some stage and required to hold on to objectives.
For future reference, if you're asking a question regarding gameplay it might be best not to lead with "on a fluff-wise note..." :P

The Harakoni Warhawks use carapace armour certainly, but why are we to take that as common practice for Drop Troop regiments? For all we know, they might be the only Drop Troop regiment in the Imperium that does it. Perhaps they have the means to make armour comparative in terms of protection to standard carapace armour, yet lightweight like flak armour? Perhaps their grav-chutes are more efficient than those of other regiments? Who knows? It just seems logical to me that weight would be a concern for Drop Troops. Given that they must often jump with all the personal equipment they may need to endure in a protracted engagement, often cut off from resupply, I'm not sure the additional weight of carapace armour is going to be possible for the majority of regiments.

[hr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
Foot slogging - Basically give everyone assault weapons and charge towards the enemy and objectives, possibly using meat shields (like conscripts) to thin the casualties on more important units. Still seems like a rather suicidal and ruthless tactic, while I prefer to keep men alive for future operations.
Bear in mind that the 'meat shield' is a myth with the current rules. Leadership is so high for almost all armies that target priority checks are virtually a non-event. Unless your conscripts are tying up enemy units in close combat, they're not going to draw any fire away from the more threatening units...unless your opponent is a moron, and you can't count on that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Sanders
When all was finished, the battlefield was a smoking crater. UDC, Valoran, US Army, Tau, the Nazis, a random pirate ship, and a bunch of ninjas, all were enemies to the Vulture. All were turned into scrap metal. Or plastic. Depends which game system you play.
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Old 21 Jan 2008, 13:15   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Mobile Guard

Well, the meat shield concept works with the foot slogging list, just not in the same sense as "This unit is blocking my way of killing that important unit behind it. Guess I get to waste a turn firing at it." It's more of a "too many targets" thing. If you've got 3 russes, a couple batteries of heavy weapons and a half dozen squads of melta/plasma-toting guardsmen and stormtroopers, your opponent is going to have a hell of a time picking targets. Most of the time they end up choosing the immediate threat of the charing swarm of infantry (In my experience) leaving my support squads relatively un-scathed to bombard at will.
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