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i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches
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Old 24 May 2007, 03:39   #1 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

SO... thanks for clicking here... I have a dilemma. I introduced my big brother to 40k about 10 years ago while he was still dorkin around with Magic Cards. He has rules-lawyed his way to be the most ruthless mathhammer player I have ever seen, and he understands 4th ed. rules loopholes far better than I do. I have only beaten him once in the 5 games I have played against his ridiculously abusive speedfreak army, and now... he is giving me access to his multitude of Vostroyans to take on his new chaos tournament army. His name is Redbeard on this forum, but he hasnt been on this site for a while, some of you may know him... he's a great guy, but incredibly frustrating to play against. Most of my experience in 4th ed. has been with Guard vs. Guard or vs. Tau, so sicko fast assault armies are not something I am used to coping with without my much missed overwatch rules that got dumbed-down out by 4th ed. (remember I'm a Rogue Trader/2nd ed veteran, and 4th ed. just confuses me with its simplicity sometimes)....


Sooo...

this is what I know about his army:

slaanesh
1 actual chaos marine squad
many terminator squads with icons

he stomps up close with the termies, then summons demonettes within charge range of your line and just rolls up in assault while you cant shoot back. nasty ruthless efficient. I have no chaos codex so i dont even know what to expect as far as major demons, chaos lords, demon princes or anything like that. It is a matter of pride that I need to be able to at least put up a fight against his mathhammer tourney army. He is my big bro after all... so here's a rundown of what I have available... we'll probably play around 1500 points... what should I do against this blatantly abusive army of his?? Any advice is helpful...

my figure options:

lots of lasgunners... enough for a 2000 point inf army
24 plasma gunners (not that that helps vs. termies though)
12 lascannon teams
6 hvy bolters
3 mortars
1 autocannon
5 chimera
16 flamers
6 meltagunners
2 demo charges
8 snipers
10 sgts with laspist/ccw
assorted officers
2 commies
3 medics
1 standard
3 vox casters (only 3?? i asked him why and he just shrugged)
16 rough riders
1 russ/lascannon
1 russ/3 heavy bolt
1 bassie
1 griffin
1 sentinel with magnet weapon mounts
1 demolisher with plascannon sponsons

what should I focus on?
... the variety is too big for me to figure out the most efficient force as I am used to just fighting schlock armies as thrown together as my own.

I know primary concern is to get rid of the terminators with the icons so the demonettes can't get their little fast cheap assault in. But if I load up on lascannons, I'll lack the dice to deal with his 'regular' (as if there's any such thing) troops and monsters.

So... like I said.... any advice from people who have faced similar chaos sickness would be most welcome.
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Old 24 May 2007, 03:51   #2 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

The good news is, he is not allowed to have more then 20 terminators in that sized game . Demolisher and plasmaguns on the infantry squads would be usful at killing the terminators. Also I recommend keeping your infanty spaced apart when you deploy so that if he charges a squad he cannot advance into a new one. If he does charge you with demonettes, and fails to kill or rout a squad counter charge..They are very weak without the charge and if you outnumber them in combat you can deal a good amount of damage to them.

Also concentrate your fire. If he has a demon prince with flight or speed focus all your fire until it is dead, after that focus onto one terminator squad until it is dead and repeat. If the squad is wiped out, there will be no demons...This will be harder said then done, but keep it in mind.

considering he is not biking in the deamons..The army is not that bad..and he has to bring the demons in if they are rolled for, so if the termi's are not close...The demonettes may be open for shooting. Don't be static..and make sure you can put up a counter charge if/when he charges you.

Hope I gave you some help here..Not much more I can think of..Sure that others can come in with further help.
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Old 24 May 2007, 14:10   #3 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

do ya think this is viable:

demolisher, 5 lascannon infantry squads, 5 meltagun infantry squads, lascannon JO, meltagun JO; to cope with the terminators

leman with 3 heavy bolters, and 3 heavy bolter fire support teams to shoot up troops and floundering demonettes, and force saves on the demon prince/chaos lord (whatever he choses to bring)

I think I need to stay well away from cover, so I have the biggest field of fire possible... as you said, easier said than done, since he strategically places terrain with goals in mind as we take turns adding to the table. Ugh.

close order drill so i can keep my squads separate, maybe give em all 'die hard' too so the demonettes dont just roll up on me - (i doubt if he has much ordance stuff in there so I don't have to worry much about bunching up - I hope - I have no idea what wierd psyker powers can do)

10 rough riders with ccw/shotguns and frags rather than lances for the counter charge when the demonettes show up, just kept back and out of harms way

5 rough riders with lances for the one shot tank kill charge on his wierd giant mech-bug defiler thingy I know he'll bring.

ugh. i feel afraid. you dont know my brother... he is the most sick efficient rules lawyer and statistician you can imagine. and he has access to pretty much any model he wants. I'm sure he picked his army on purpose to abuse the rules and take advantage of opponent's occasional character-building fluff stuff.

he's the guy who posted a bulletin about how "statistically", carapace armor upgrades are not a viable option (then why have them in the codex?? sez me) and autocannons are the most inefficient heavy weapon in a tournament and so on. He is downright scary. no sense of fluff. just efficiency. That's why I want so bad to be able to put up a fight.
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Old 24 May 2007, 14:25   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

I agree with grindgobble.

Demolishers and plasma weapons are nastier then nasty when facing units with a 2+ save. Downright evil. And a demolisher cannon pie plate on an unaware advancing terminator squad. Thats a scary little tactic.

I like the rough riders, they are a good counter charge unit.

As for the meltas, id switch em to plasma guns. You still get an AP bonus and they have longer range so you;ll get more shots in. All those advantages for the small disadvantage of frying themselves on a roll of 1. I say its worth it.


I also agree with the concentrating of fire. However, if you have a top priority target in range of 2 melta/plasma squads and another top priority target in range of one but not the other. Shoot with the one that is not in range of the second target at the first target first in case you kill it. Then you can shoot with the second squad at the second target. You obviously cant check range before shooting but if its blatant or at least doubtful in your mind that one of the squads is out of range of target 2 then go for the systematic killing.

I find that in order to beat people who play like this i usually have to take on a bit of their strategies. Hiding a demolisher behind a hill until the other people come in range or in sight of it is one tactic i sometimes have to use against my friends marines.

Another is packing my army full of heavy weapons when i fight a massive armored group of some race or another even though my fluff says they use very few heavy weapons.

I hate doing that and ignoring fluff. It makes the game less fun but the game isn't any fun at all if your opponent rolls over you with his completely decked out for efficiency army.
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Old 24 May 2007, 16:47   #5 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

cheers. thanks. plasma + demolisher + countercharging roughriders will win one for the emp.... this, and that guard doctrine we all have in the back of our heads that says "just keep pushing". I'll post the results on friday night after this fiasco.

one last Q: what can I expect of demon lord type characters he will have? can he hose entire squads in one move with them? I don't know shit about chaos...
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Old 24 May 2007, 18:23   #6 (permalink)
Shas'Ui
 
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

If he has the deamon prince layed out for speed then the plasmas will decimate him
Count some of the sargents as last chancers and they will give you a nice force to slow down the termies
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Old 25 May 2007, 00:50   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

ooh slannesh demonprince. in my mind, if he is truly as evil as you say he is, this means one thing. siren lord. possibly doomfisted if hes particulary rules-lawyery. Siren is a minor psychic power for slannesh that if he makes it, you can't shoot or assault him. quite nasty. woulda thought hed go for the sirenbomb. ah well. oh yea, he'll be going first. and also, just about any chaos DP with any upgrades will rip through IG lines quite nicely. Khorne in particular.

no particular need for mobility, he gonna be comin for your face most likely. get the plasmas. and the demolishers. heck a lascannon or two might do you good.

ooh try the plasma command squad o' death. 4 plasma guns and an officer with a plasma pistol. or perhaps just 3 plasma gunners and a medic, which will likely be needed.

ah i see you have some demolition charge throwers? definitely make a special weapons squad or two with those. they're ap2 ordance, and could be a nice surprise.
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Old 25 May 2007, 01:16   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

remember though, only one demo pack thrower per special weapon squad so 2 special weapon squads 2 plasmas in each and a demo pack in each would be major hurty units to his force.

A leman russ might not be a bad idea either if you've got enough points, its AP 3 so it'll take out regular marines and strength 8 large blast so it might be nice for anything not in terminator armor. The range and strength also tend to make it a nice draw for AT fire over a demolisher allowing your demolisher to survive longer in the open.
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Old 25 May 2007, 01:43   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

I myself try to get at least one Psychic hood into my army, and find a Honorifica Imperialis Sanctioned Psyker usually does the job decently, though if you want more punch, you could use an Inquisitor instead; either type works.
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Old 25 May 2007, 01:49   #10 (permalink)
Shas'El
 
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Default Re: i need help. calling all veterans for advice... i mean it. chaos encroaches

If you have a priest, You can attach it to a command squad..Makes a good counter assault unit if you have powerfists and things, I used it to kill a demon prince that assaulted me today in my game against a chaos army.

I also suggest hellhounds. Great for killing terminators..They always fail their saves against the Inferno cannons I found..Not quite sure why. Make sure to keep some squads ahead to get charged while keeping others a little ways away..Then you can counter charge or rapid fire the unit(s) to death at your leisure.

Never realized that Demo Charges are AP2. Could be very handy if you get close to the terminators (or vise versa) but it is a good amount of points for a squad with a once use wonder...I'd get two if anything, one for each flank.
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