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Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 16:39   #1 (permalink)
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Default Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

Continuing from this topic.

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Old 19 Apr 2007, 20:59   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

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Originally Posted by Heastaris, The Glimmering Blade
I don't think an Abrams tank's weapons are that much weaker (although they are less numerous).

Based on the technology available to us now compared to the archaic retrieved technology of 40k, I would say the Abrams is far better at targeting and hitting targets.
Probably.

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I'm pretty sure the Machine guns are the equivalent of heavy stubbers (or better), I'm sure I read that in an old Wargear book.
Makes sense.

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HEAT (High Energy Anti-Tank) rounds probably match the Leman Russ' bulky shells, and likely have more range (esp with the longer barrel of the Abrams tank), and depleted uranium is what the Imperium use in their shells isn't it?
I'm pretty sure its depleted uranium, yes, but I have to disagree with your assessment of the HEAT shells. While I may think that modern vehicles are better designed than 40K ones, I don't think they're as powerful.

A HEAT shell is alot more concentrated than a Battlecannon shell. Not to mention that you could comfortably fit a 120 mm cannon inside the battle cannon barrel without touching the sides... The firepower gap is just so high that, pitted against eachother in open warfare, the modern tanks would lose. They'd give them hell on the way down, but they would lose.

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If it wasn't for the Russ' sponsons I would bet on the Abrams (or the Challenger 2) any day.
Never mind the sponsoons, they're not the deciding factor.

What I'm more worried about is the Battle Cannon, in which an Abrams main weapon could comfortably fit the without touching the sides of the barrel.

With their present loadouts, the modern vehicles just can't compete. Give them equivalent technology, and their superior design gives them many advantages over their slow, gigantic, unwieldy counterparts.

That Predator's four lascannons are all well and good until my four lascannon-toting Abrams show the Space Marines how real men wage war... :

Titans make for excellent target practice. Their huge profile guarantees that they will never get the jump on my tanks. Ever. It also, incidentally, lets my forces to engage them from much longer ranges than would normally be possible, allowing them to take it out much faster than most other similarly minor threats.

That Baneblade had it all going for it until it met its volume in Merkavas... spread out over a 100m or so... whizzing by at 70 km/h... and still nailing it with lascannon blasts.

Image: Leman Russ BT and Merkava superimposed over Baneblade. Images roughly to scale.
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 21:02   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

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Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder
Titans make for excellent target practice. Their huge profile guarantees that they will never get the jump on my tanks. Ever. It also, incidentally, lets my forces to engage them from much longer ranges than would normally be possible, allowing them to take it out much faster than most other similarly minor threats.
Is this before or after the Precept booms over the laud-hailer, "Fools! We have Void Shields!", and then proceeds to fire a shell somewhat larger than your tank in your general direction? :
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 21:14   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

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Originally Posted by Wargamer
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Originally Posted by Lord-General Thunder
Titans make for excellent target practice. Their huge profile guarantees that they will never get the jump on my tanks. Ever. It also, incidentally, lets my forces to engage them from much longer ranges than would normally be possible, allowing them to take it out much faster than most other similarly minor threats.
Is this before or after the Precept booms over the laud-hailer, "Fools! We have Void Shields!", and then proceeds to fire a shell somewhat larger than your tank in your general direction? :
Well, you're assuming he gets close enough for anybody to hear it... :

Throw enough intelligently based firepower at anything and it will die. That includes Titans.

Unfortunately for said titans, they're so large that against an intelligent enemy, its virtually impossible to avoid absorbing enough firepower to either disable them, or at least severely damage their shields.

Then, distributed firepower allows me to spread my tanks so you can only take out one or two at a time. With your slow rate of fire, its gonna take you a long time to kill them all, even if you survive long enough to do it. So long, in fact, that there'll probably be time to call in an airstrike.

So, I figure some time after the Precept gets his ego trip, but before the B-52 squadron and tank division reduces the thing to scrap.

Alternatively, the tanks could just be spotters for missile batteries sitting out of visual range. Sling a few Tomahawks your way, for example.

Now I'll grant you that the only way to field Titan-scale weapons using modern design strategies is on vehicles the size of or bigger than a Leman, but that's a necessary evil. Let the Russians do it. Tsar Laser Destroyer, or somesuch.
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 23:08   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

I would take an Abrams over the Russ any day. The Abrams would most likely get the first shot off, hit more often(and on the move), and has the supior anti-tank weapon. We're not talking "Shoot it over there, the explosion will kill them." I'm talking "Shoot that tank, ok, its gone, NEXT!" For the only sponson that a Russ can take(its not even standard too!) that can hurt an Abrams is the plasma cannon.

The M1 also has reactive armor, a top highway landspeed of 70 MPH, and, if I remember correctly, 40 MPH not on highway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk9BiypNxQM

And here is something else-

range 295 miles maximum speed 42 mph crew 4 armament 120 mm m256 smoothbore cannon 50 caliber m2 machine gun
7.62 m240 machine gun and 7.62 coaxial machine gun

ammo deplete uranium sabot HEAT MPAT
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 23:20   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

Aye! Not this topic again! >

--

Sloped armor: Reduces the effect by pretty much precisely Square Root of 2 for light-based weapons, by spreading out the area of effect. But you're still screwed.

Of course it could just be a spotter... In fact, why don't we make all of armies just spotters for missiles :

I have too much homework and am too tired of this topic to comment right now. Give me a few hours of Shakespeare time and I'll be more than ready to talk treadheadness, though ;D .

P.S.-

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Throw enough intelligently based firepower at anything and it will die. That includes Titans.
No shit, sherlock. But will your intelligently-firepowering units kill more than they are worth?
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 23:26   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

i agree with Gator, sloped armour is better. just look at the Leopard 2A5/A6, germany's best export product military wise. it's not a gas guzzler like the M1 and i'm not sure how much different it is from a Challenger. but why would you put a modern army against a future army? of course we're screwed, we don't stand a chance.
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Old 19 Apr 2007, 23:43   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

A note to everyone; don't bother comparing modern weapons to 40k ones. They're just way too wanked for ours to stand a chance in anything short of concept. Instead, I'm comparing our own vehicles with similar weaponry.

We're better in terms of design, tactics, and general combat doctrine, so that given, we win.

I'll readily admit that an M-1 doesn't stand a chance in hell against a Russ, mostly because an Exterminator mounts the same weapons in a fully automatic format!

Arm it with its 40K equivalent, the lascannon, and it wins hands down thanks to its incredible speed and precision.

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Originally Posted by Shas'O GeekyGator
Sloped armor: Reduces the effect by pretty much precisely Square Root of 2 for light-based weapons, by spreading out the area of effect. But you're still screwed.
Look, 40K has a hell of a lot more than just lasers. Look at all the different weapons avaliable to the Imperium and you'll figure out why its useful. Until then, good luck. :

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Of course it could just be a spotter... In fact, why don't we make all of armies just spotters for missiles :
Of course taking it to the ridiculous extreme is, well, extreme in its ridiculous. You havn't really said anything.

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Throw enough intelligently based firepower at anything and it will die. That includes Titans.
No shit, sherlock. But will your intelligently-firepowering units kill more than they are worth?
Relative to their 40K equivalents, yes.
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Old 20 Apr 2007, 00:48   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

The main gun of an Abrams is a 120mm smoothbore. I reckon the Russ' gun has more power, but shorter range than the Abrams' cannon just due to the stubbier design of the gun.

I reckon the HEAT shell is best compared with the armour-piercing rounds detailed in IAs optional ammo rules. It's an anti-tank round.

Design wise, I personally think the Russ follows a different philosophy to the Abrams in terms of it's purpose. The Russ seems to have a somewhat "between the wars" kind of idea to it's design. It reminds me very much of a French Char or that Russian multi-turret design. It's not gonna be that fast, but it's got a huge amount of armour and is great for spearheading a frontal advance. Modern tanks are definately more maneuverable and are definately used more to engage enemy tank formations rather than gunning down infantry. I'd say the closest thing the guard have to an Abrams is the Vanquisher. However, it's still a Russ Variant, so it will of course have some of the basic characteristics of the guard's go-to tank
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Old 20 Apr 2007, 02:25   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Imperial tanks vs the tanks of today (Mainly the Leman Russ)

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Originally Posted by Fish Ead
The main gun of an Abrams is a 120mm smoothbore. I reckon the Russ' gun has more power, but shorter range than the Abrams' cannon just due to the stubbier design of the gun.

I reckon the HEAT shell is best compared with the armour-piercing rounds detailed in IAs optional ammo rules. It's an anti-tank round.
I have my doubts. The Vanquisher battlecannon is significantly higher calibre than the 120mm gun on an Abrams. I've measured. Exterminator autocannons are 120mm deals...
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